Is knowing this important to your decision to purchase said rasp? Why? What if it is something uniquely different and, for the time being, secret? Would that cause you not to buy it?
Contributor
Is knowing this important to your decision to purchase said rasp? Why? What if it is something uniquely different and, for the time being, secret? Would that cause you not to buy it?
[OP]
Member
It would force me to spend more time wading through low-signal-to-noise subjective opinions and trying to sift the information from the chaff. It would also cause me to limit my investment until I gained confidence that the coating adds values for my use (which would take years).Originally Posted by Pat Barry
In general, not knowing what the "shiny new thing" is forces me to make conservative assumptions about its likely value. That in turn tends to bias me towards going with the known, tried-and-true solution.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 12-28-2016 at 3:27 PM.
Contributor
That is tragic. With an untarnished reputation of customer satisfaction you still wouldn't "take chance" on a Lee Valley PM-V11 blade. If it didn't fulfill your needs or desires it could have gone back for a cheerful refund. Instead you hold tenaciously to a "need to know what is in it before buying" attitude. I hope I never have to wait for service in a restaurant while you are holding up the wait staff with your demands of knowing every ingredient of every dish on the menu.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
[OP]
Member
Pat asked a hypothetical question (how I would respond if something were unknowable) and I gave an equally hypothetical answer.
I have many thousands of dollars worth of tools with PM-V11 blades. In that case I avoided the aforementioned hypothetical problem via the magic of XRF.
As I've said a few times, this has nothing to do with "reputation". I believe that they've always been unimpeachably scrupulous, but even so their statements can't possibly be applicable to everybody. Yes, they will do whatever it takes to make me happy, but I don't necessarily want to spend my time and effort figuring out experimentally whether my use model matches their assumptions. Also, short of buying 2 or 3 of everything and then returning all but the best, it's difficult to tell what the benefits of something like PM-V11 are *for my use case*. Opportunity costs are notoriously difficult to measure.
Liogier's Sapphire rasps present an even thornier challenge, because at the rate I would use them it would take years of using both types to figure out if I got value for my money. Even the most ethical tool manufacturer wouldn't accept a return under those conditions. Better to just give customers the information they need to make informed decisions.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 12-28-2016 at 4:21 PM.
Contributor
I see the sapphire commands a ~3x price. For an industrial user thus might make sense. For low frequency, home use, etc I'd live with the standard tool. Save your money and buy more variety. That would be most useful for most of us.
Member
Haha. You know that happens. What pesticides were used on the lemons in this lemonade? Are these Berkshire lemons harvested under moonlight during the waning hours of the summer solstice? What do you mean you don't know? What sort of Chik-fil-a is this?!!!
Im kidding. Sort of 😀
[OP]
Member
There's certainly a question of relevance. The examples you give are ones where the relevance is questionable, because there's little chance that the distinction will make any difference to a real user.
I humbly suggest that in the two examples I gave (alloy and coating of a hand tool) are closer to: "Are you selling me an orange or a lemon"? IMO the distinctions are important and relevant at that level.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 12-28-2016 at 5:03 PM.
Contributor
This is getting to be a bit tedious. If you have results from XRF and they confirm the metal is what you think it is, what is the big fuss?I have many thousands of dollars worth of tools with PM-V11 blades. In that case I avoided the aforementioned hypothetical problem via the magic of XRF.
If as Kees proposed the metal is the same as CTS-XHP there may be a problem with Lee Valley saying so. If it is made by another maker they may not be able to use the same trade name or even suggest it is the same metal.
With my use of rasps, it isn't likely mine will be wearing out, let alone four, in my lifetime. The extra hardness coating living up to its marketing claim would still be an extravagance for my needs. Someone who makes hardwood saw handles all day everyday may need the sapphire coating for their work. If that were me it would be worth taking a chance to purchase one. In your case you could then subject it to Xray Fluorescence, find an answer and share it with the world or smugly keep it as your own secret.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
[OP]
Member
Then why do you keep replying?
I started this thread (as opposed to the other one) to ask if anybody had and was willing to share a very specific bit of information. Instead I've mostly gotten arguments for why I should want to be blissfully ignorant.
Member
Patrick; have you tried to contact Noel Logier to learn more about their Sapphire Coating. Have to tried to contact Rob Lee on their use of PM steel. Is their opinion of no relevance to these discussions.
Stewie;
Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 12-28-2016 at 6:55 PM.
Member
Pat; one could say the same thing when outlaying a lot of money for a high end bench plane, when a cheaper 2nd hand Stanley would have served the same purpose for a low end user.
As to the reason why I switched from the standard Logier Rasps to the Sapphire Coated, the (standard finish) fine stitch rasps were not holding up to the demands of the more abrasive, harder Aussie timbers I prefer to work with. If one were to restrict themselves to the more common softer native timbers in the USA, its then questionable whether the extra cost to purchase the Sapphire Coating would be of much advantage to a low end user.
Stewie;
Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 12-28-2016 at 7:24 PM.
Member
It seems about impossible to keep getting back to the now closed thread,doesn't it????
Contributor
In regards to Noel's rasp, I have no clue. I have both. I do know they hold up better, but to what extent I couldn't say. That would require a more scientific test. The debate reminds me of those who profess they use "Swedish spring steel" with an RC of 52. A generic term often used to refer to several types of spring steel. So is it 1075, 1084, or 1095? Most would read "Swedish spring steel" and that is as far as it would go. They "assume". Others want to know exactly what they are getting. After all, 1075, or 1084 may not hold an edge as well, But most would not even notice. Some one in marketing once said, "if you disclose every thing about your product, you are giving away the store." Either way, I have no horse in the race, but do enjoy reading these post and learning. I am reasonably sure I have learned more about steel in the last few years than I ever thought I would want.Thanks for posting. Best wishes and Happy New Year.
Member
I have never owned a rasp and I am getting ready to order some from Logier. It's painful enough to spend the money but in my view it's not like I can't get my money out of them if I don't use them or I die and my family sells them. As someone that is a somewhat casual user, do the non sapphire coated (regardless of what it actually is) last a lifetime of casual use or would I be better off buying the coated and not worry about it? Thanks for any advice you could give.
Contributor
I have one of each and very casual use on each (both on the finer grain end of things). Can't say that I have noticed much wear on either. I think you would be safe buying a non-coated and have it last your life time. If I were to do it again I think I might prefer to use the sapphire coating on a rougher grain rather than finer.
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