Is It Me, Or Is It The Honey Locust?

[Dom Garafalo]

If anyone has read any of my threads you know I'm a new turner.

I thought I was making progress going up the learning curve of turning until today. Because today, I decided to start turning a 6 inch bowl out of a piece of dry honey locust I picked up some time ago. I knew it was different and probably harder than the cherry, ash and silver maple I've been working with simply because of its weight.

Although I sharpened my tools before starting roughing this blank, this piece of wood was so hard that I had to resharpen my tools several times just to shape the outside of the bowl. The grain is very nice and the bowl should look really striking when done, but I can already tell this bowl is going to take a while to finish.

So is it me and my lack of experience or is this wood real hard and tough on tools? Or a little bit of both?

I just need to know.

Thank you

[John Lifer]

It is NOT you! it is usually very hard. I've turned some successfully green, and semi green, but it is a HARD wood
Grain is very pretty, but it makes you work!

[Brian Brown]

It's not just you. That stuff is like turning granite. Beautiful wood, but hard on tools. I turned some that was still a bit green, and had a catch so bad it broke the tool rest on my lathe. Beautiful, but go slow and sharpen often.

[Ted Prinz]

Totally agree with John & Brian. I've done some honey locust (turned it green then finish turned it after drying) and it was a real bear. I was truly shocked at how heavy it was. And, yes, I had to resharpen often. Plus it didn't sand well so getting a good a finish as you can with your final pass is important. But, IMHO, it was worth the effort. It had beautiful color, absolutely beautiful.

[Michael Schneider]

Locust is a great fence post wood since it is almost a drop in replacement for iron fence posts....

Michael

[Bob Bergstrom]

Locust also has a very high BTU output. Makes a great, hot fire.

[Wade Lippman]

Locust also has a very high BTU output. Makes a great, hot fire.

I made 2 honey locust blanks. First made a lovely bowl. Second went in the fireplace. Just not worth it.

[John K Jordan]

If anyone has read any of my threads you know I'm a new turner.

I thought I was making progress going up the learning curve of turning until today. Because today, I decided to start turning a 6 inch bowl out of a piece of dry honey locust I picked up some time ago. I knew it was different and probably harder than the cherry, ash and silver maple I've been working with simply because of its weight.

Although I sharpened my tools before starting roughing this blank, this piece of wood was so hard that I had to resharpen my tools several times just to shape the outside of the bowl. The grain is very nice and the bowl should look really striking when done, but I can already tell this bowl is going to take a while to finish.

So is it me and my lack of experience or is this wood real hard and tough on tools? Or a little bit of both?

I just need to know.

Dom,

Dry Locust is in fact much harder than cherry, etc. From the Wood Database: "Workability: Honey Locust can be difficult to work with hand and machine tools on account of its density, though it generally produces good results. Turns, glues, stains, and finishes well."
http://www.wood-database.com/honey-locust/

I mostly turn dry wood and have turned honey locust and black locust. I think the black locust is actually harder than the honey locust, Janka Hardness is 1700 for black locust vs 1580 for honey locust. Compare to 950 for black cherry and 700 for silver maple! (Lignum vitae is over 4000.)

And compared to soft, green wood, it is MUCH harder and more challenging and much slower. However, I've never found it unworkable. Dry osage orange, dogwood, lignum vitae, persimmon, and even hickory are also pretty hard. I remember a guy at our club who turned a big bowl from hickory who said he would never do that again!

What kind of tools do you have? The better tools will stay sharp much longer. I primarily use Doug Thompson's tools and the steel is incredible.

Are your tools properly hardened? I got a big box of inexpensive used tools recently, some name brands, and tested them all. Some were not even hardened! Those would not hold an edge long except for softer woods. You can test for proper hardening by trying to file a little notch on the shaft. (I use a triangular file) If the file will bite into the shaft the tool is not hardened. Some cheaper tools are hardened only for the first inch or so. Once you grind through that you might as well throw the tool away (or learn to heat treat).

Other tools that are great for hard, dry wood are the Hunter carbide tools. Unlike the cruder, inexpensive carbide tools, the cutter and geometry he uses makes these work like a gouge, but one you never have to sharpen. I've been using his Hercules and Osprey tools more lately on hard woods. You can use these just like gouges and get extremely smooth cuts. When I used them on hard, dense exotics the surface off the tool is almost polished.

One thing you absolutely HAVE to have with hard, dry wood is razor sharp tools. I always sharpened on a Tormek with a wet wheel then honed to a mirror polish with their leather wheel. These days I mostly sharpen on a 600 grit CBN wheel and hit it with the leather wheel but usually don't take the the to polish. This works well.

With hard, dry wood you do have to take a smaller bite than with cherry or soft maple. If you are used to making huge shavings with soft green wood you may have to work a bit to turn dry efficiently. With sharp, high quality tools and good technique it shouldn't be any problem. I would recommend sticking with it. As you get more experience all this will become MUCH easier! I have seen some new turners give up and stick with turning green wood. That's perfectly fine of course, this is a hobby for most of us. But I think some might be missing out on a lot.

Of course, you can always pack up and ship the honey locust to me! That I have has wonderful color and some interesting figure. The black locust I've turned has been mostly quite bland and boring.

BTW, another thing that makes tools very dull is wood with silica in it - some species have very high silica content. And I don't know why, but I've on occasion had very old wood that was much harder on tools than equally dry but not so old. I once had a slab of 3" thick walnut that was a mantel in a 100 year-old house. That wood dulled an expensive Starrett bimetal blade in just a few feet of cut. Yikes.

JKJ

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I don’t know why this wood is supposed to be so hard to turn, yes it is harder wood, but steel is a lot harder and will cut it quite nicely.

I have turned quite a few pieces of Honey Locust, all got turned green, then dried and returned, a couple where large bowls, we still have the biggest one here in our house as a floor bowl.

I like turning it, being quite hard it sands and finishes very nicely.

Large Honey Locust.jpg Honey Locust crotch.jpg Live edge Honey Locust bowl.jpg Footed Honey Locust.jpg

[Dom Garafalo]

What kind of tools do you have?

Since turning was a totally new hobby for me and not knowing whether I was going to like it, I took the advice of a number of experienced turners and bought the better quality harbor freight tool set which I think was good advice. No sense grinding away all that expensive tool steel until I knew how to sharpen. I also bought a 1/2" Benjamin Best bowl gouge and one of their 3/8" spindle gouges. In addition, I've made several tools using the carbide cutters Captain Eddie sells which work quite well.

I realize better tools with better steel will hold their edge much better, but I'm getting a lot of experience sharpening with the tools I have. Since I like turning and do think I'm making progress, I'll probably start buying some high quality tools to replace the current ones I use most frequently.

Although honey locust is definitely much harder to turn and finish than most wood I've turned so far, I wanted to do a reality check to see if any others on this site could relate to my experience with it thus far. I'm not about to give up on it, because other than having beautiful grain, mastering it is a terrific learning experience.

Thanks JKJ and everyone for your comments

[Wade Lippman]

Other tools that are great for hard, dry wood are the Hunter carbide tools. Unlike the cruder, inexpensive carbide tools, the cutter and geometry he uses makes these work like a gouge, but one you never have to sharpen. I've been using his Hercules and Osprey tools more lately on hard woods. You can use these just like gouges and get extremely smooth cuts. When I used them on hard, dense exotics the surface off the tool is almost polished.

I have a Hunter #4 that I rarely use; as I find it grabs if I try to take anything but the lightest cut.
I looked up the Hercules and Osprey. They are smaller cutters and hold the cutter at an angle to the tool, while mine is flat to the shaft. I use with the tool rest raised up, but it still grabs.
Any advice on how to better use it? Or it just not as good as the ones you use?

[Gary Baler]

Dom,
I am definitely sad to say to you that these other guys are all wrong. IT IS YOU. The honey locust just doesn't like you. When it doesn't like you it will beat your tools up, try to jerk the tools out of your hand, make your wrists sore and your shoulders ache. It will make you doubt yourself, your commitment to learning and turning and cause you to reevaluate the reason your are on this earth. Although there is beauty in the honey locust this wood does not release it without a fight. Once you have proved you are worthy, however, the wood will allow you to glimpse it's beauty. Then and only then are you on the path to fulfillment. The end result can be a thing of beauty with a beautiful grain and a strong vibrant color that will become darker and deeper with time.

Hang in there grasshopper. The honey locust can be vanquished but not without paying the price. On a serious note ... anyone who has turned this wood has to have a love and a hate for it.

[John K Jordan]

I have a Hunter #4 that I rarely use; as I find it grabs if I try to take anything but the lightest cut.
I looked up the Hercules and Osprey. They are smaller cutters and hold the cutter at an angle to the tool, while mine is flat to the shaft. I use with the tool rest raised up, but it still grabs.
Any advice on how to better use it? Or it just not as good as the ones you use?

Wade,

I have that #4, or at least it looks like the #4 on Mike's website - I get confused by his names, #4, #1, ...

Is that the one with the large cutter and the large diameter shaft? The larger cutter IS grabbier for me since it is taking a larger bite. I prefer the smaller cutters, such as the one on big straight taper tool (don't know the number) since it has the heavy, sturdy shaft but tapers down to the small cutter. I use it for heavier cuts on larger pieces.

The straight cutters work very well in the scraping mode on the inside of bowls and vessels. I use a small one to smooth the inside of smaller things, such as this little bell ornament (cut in half to show the insides). I think it is the one at the top of the second picture:

bells_cutaway_IMG_5169.jpg textured_handles_hunterIMG_.jpg

I use it to clean up the curve at the bottom of the cavity then take very light "dragging" cuts from the bottom to the rim. I tilt the tool a little to the left while dragging. This is basically scraping but with a very light touch. It WILL hog out a lot of material if desired but will catch if held with the cutter too horizontal. This is my favorite tool for the inside of these and I've tried a lot of things. I use the curved one at the bottom for the inside of things that are closed in at the rim.

I find the angled cutters MUCH easier to use in the "bevel rubbing" mode than the straight tools. I use these:

HUNTER4_side_IMG_20160803_1.jpg HUNTER4_top_IMG_20160803_10.jpg

The top two are the Hercules, the third one the Osprey, and the bottom one I thing he called a Clewes model. While you can use the straight tools in this way it is more difficult since instead of pushing the tool to guide it just like a gouge, you have to hold the handle at a more unnatural angle. In some cases, such as inside a bowl, that handle angle makes cutting easier since it keeps the tool shaft from hitting the rim.

The Hercules and Osprey are almost the same, slightly different angles, but the biggest difference is the square shaft is a bit sturdier. I don't find them any different in use. I haven't used the Clewes version enough yet to decide what it is good for.

The angled tools can still be used as scrapers. Since the edge is so sharp, I find they give a much better surface scraping than some of the flat-topped carbide scrapers, especially those with large diameter. Since the cutter is smaller they do need a steady hand for a smooth surface instead of making a series of ridges.

One note, I don't like the way some of these models have the heel a tiny bit proud of the line of the side of the cutter so I ground away, rounded, and polished the heel:

hunter_hercules_mod.jpg

These tools can give an incredibly smooth surface on hard, fine grained woods, often needing only very fine sanding. I use them to cut acrylic also, almost leaving a polished surface. I've been making a bunch of ornaments and things this year from cast colored acrylic. After cutting, I usually need to start with 600 or 800 grit, sand to 1200 then polish:

acrylic_ornaments_A_comp.jpg

Have you seen the John Lucas tools on the Hunter Tools? He shows how to use both the straight and angled tools. I don't have time to look up the links now (off to haul and stack a load of hay in a few minutes) but you can search youtube for Lucas Hunter tool or somesuch.

JKJ

[Wade Lippman]

Wade,

I have that #4, or at least it looks like the #4 on Mike's website - I get confused by his names, #4, #1, ...

Is that the one with the large cutter and the large diameter shaft? The larger cutter IS grabbier for me since it is taking a larger bite.

Have you seen the John Lucas tools on the Hunter Tools? He shows how to use both the straight and angled tools. I don't have time to look up the links now (off to haul and stack a load of hay in a few minutes) but you can search youtube for Lucas Hunter tool or somesuch.

JKJ

No, I hadn't seen the video, but apparently I have been using it wrong all these years. I have used it as a scraper on the inside of bowls, but anything else grabber. He explains that it has to be angled. I will try that; thanks for directing me to it.

The one I watched is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo

He uses the same tool I have.
------------------------
I just spent a half hour working with it. When I get it just right, it is much like a gouge. But I find a gouge easier to use. Maybe I just need practice. Thanks again.

[John K Jordan]

He uses the same tool I have.
------------------------
I just spent a half hour working with it. When I get it just right, it is much like a gouge. But I find a gouge easier to use. Maybe I just need practice. Thanks again.

Yes, a gouge is easier than that straight one. But as I mentioned, yours will get into places for clean cuts that the gouge might have trouble with. If you can swing it, try the Hercules or Osprey. Upstate NY is pretty far to drive, but who knows, if you get to East TN or I get up that way you could play with mine. Also, check out John L's other Hunter videos when you get time.

If you get down this way we could drive over and visit John Lucas in his shop and get a personal lesson! I go to turning club meetings both in Knoxville and in Crossville, the club Sir Lucas belongs to.

JKJ