Stanley No. 4 with PM-V11 Experience

[Allen Jordan]

I mention Kezurou-Kai as an extreme example to provide some insight as to wether or not HC steel can be made keener. I do also use a few alloy steels, one is Togo Kou and the other being Blue steel 1, both are also sharpened on natural stones. That might surprise someone looking at the contents of both of those steels. I've taken 12 micron clear shavings with Togo Kou suggesting my sharpening procedure is successful.

Some tools are just very hard to find in white steel 1, so many joinery planes or small planes are blue steel 1 and not offered in other steels. Blue 1 is easier to forge with success and so it keeps joinery planes less expensive being that the majority of attempts will be successful. There is a high failure rate with very high carbon white steel in the forging process which is one of the reasons why it is more expensive.

I cannot use loose diamonds with Japanese tools due to the lamination, they readily embed into the iron and begin to abrade the substrate rather than the opposite way around.

I prefer plain HC steels in all areas of my work and also prefer vintage irons. They're easier to refresh and maintain a more even wear. I do still use A2 in a few planes (not by preference) and I resharpened it sooner than my plain HC steel blades becuase it does not wear as evenly.

So bringing things back to being relevant to this threads OP, the replacement iron is not doing something that the original iron could not be made to do unless it was somehow damaged (ruined temper or ground incorrectly).

I've heard Konrad Sauer liken PM-V11 to O1 in terms of even wear rate. He dislikes A2 due to how quickly the initial razor edge is lost (though it stays "pretty sharp" for longer than O1), but praises the PM-V11.

[Patrick Chase]

I've heard Konrad Sauer liken PM-V11 to O1 in terms of even wear rate. He dislikes A2 due to how quickly the initial razor edge is lost (though it stays "pretty sharp" for longer than O1), but praises the PM-V11.

His comments on the topic are worth reading: http://sauerandsteiner.blogspot.ca/2014/06/pm-v11.html

To be clear, he likens PM-V11 to O1 inasmuch as they both fail gradually and evenly across the edge. My experience is consistent with that. I've also experienced the chipping failure modes he describes with A2 and other large-carbide steels.

[Brian Holcombe]

That is a good read, I refrain from speaking of PM-V11 specifically because I have such little experience with it. I have plenty of experience with A2 and as such I dislike it greatly.

Konrad Saurer's experience with HC steel sounds very similar to my own.

[Stewie Simpson]

No modern PM or A2 steel alloys in any of my tools. W1 and 01 steel has served my needs and I work with some fairly tough Aussie timbers.

[Patrick Chase]

That is a good read, I refrain from speaking of PM-V11 specifically because I have such little experience with it. I have plenty of experience with A2 and as such I dislike it greatly.

Konrad Saurer's experience with HC steel sounds very similar to my own.

Sauer also links to Steve Elliot's page, which contains pretty interesting studies of initial sharpness as a function of honing media for various steels. His metric is the amount of force to cut a loop of thread, so lower scores are better. He also includes high-carbon steels in his edge-life measurements.

Note that the L-N A2 blade is significantly worse when honed with Al-Oxide waterstones (Norton and Shapton) than when honed with diamond or CrO. It would be much worse still on SiO2 media (Arks, JNats). This jibes with my own experience - I pretty much only use diamonds for A2 these days. He also was of the opinion that A2 had unacceptable chipping below 35 deg tip angle, so that's another variable to consider.

A2 is positively friendly compared to CPM-3V, which is a train wreck on everything but diamond in Steve's test. "V" is for Vanadium, and Vanadium carbide is harder than any honing media other than CBN and diamond, so this shouldn't be a surprise. It also illustrates that PM isn't a panacea. The hard stuff is still in there even if it's much smaller.

In my experience PM-V11 is more tolerant than A2. It doesn't get to peak sharpness on SiO2, but it does well on Al-Oxide.

EDIT: Clarified that "train wreck" applies to Steve's results. See Derek's reply :-)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Patrick

I have honed CPN-3V very successfully on both Shapton and Sigma. I have both a chisel and a plane blade in this steel. Indeed, I have honed M4 on these stones as well.

What makes it easier, is to use a maximum hollow grind, thereby reducing the amount of steel to be honed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Sauer also links to Steve Elliot's page, which contains pretty interesting studies of initial sharpness as a function of honing media for various steels. His metric is the amount of force to cut a loop of thread, so lower scores are better. He also includes high-carbon steels in his edge-life measurements.

Note that the L-N A2 blade is significantly worse when honed with Al-Oxide waterstones (Norton and Shapton) than when honed with diamond or CrO. It would be much worse still on SiO2 media (Arks, JNats). This jibes with my own experience - I pretty much only use diamonds for A2 these days. He also was of the opinion that A2 had unacceptable chipping below 35 deg tip angle, so that's another variable to consider.

A2 is positively friendly compared to CPM-3V, which is a train wreck on everything but diamond. "V" is for Vanadium, and Vanadium carbide is harder than any honing media other than CBN and diamond, so this shouldn't be a surprise. It also illustrates that PM isn't a panacea. The hard stuff is still in there even if it's much smaller.

In my experience PM-V11 is more tolerant than A2. It doesn't get to peak sharpness on SiO2, but it does well on Al-Oxide.

Thats interesting, just to appease my curiosity I would like to see these tests done with an ideal honing method for each steel. An 8k water stone is not ideal for high carbon steels which should be honed with either very fine Arks or Jnats or similar natural stones.

The best edge I get with A2 is likely done with a 13k sigma. It's fine to do that it just becomes annoying to retain all of these various methods for each steel. Eventually I'll phase out A2 from my shop.

Really I use for 2 tools, the LN 7 jointer and the LN 4 plane.....so if anyone has an o1 blade and wants to upgrade give me a holler. I've yet to find a consensus on another blade that works in the LN planes....Ken may have arrived at one but I was unsure if it worked out completely.

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Patrick

I have honed CPN-3V very successfully on both Shapton and Sigma. I have both a chisel and a plane blade in this steel. Indeed, I have honed M4 on these stones as well.

What makes it easier, is to use a maximum hollow grind, thereby reducing the amount of steel to be honed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ah, I remember that now. You did well with CPM-3V, but couldn't get an edge on CPM-10V.

If I had to guess I'd venture that the difference is due to processing (heat treatment, tempering, etc). Like all PM steels CPM-3V starts out with extremely fine grain, but the structure can coalesce or grow (for lack of better words, I'm sure somebody like Tony Zaffuto could do better) as a result of subsequent handling. 3V contains Vanadium carbide, and neither of the stones you listed can effectively abrade that, but it's possible that in your specific tool the VC crystals remained small enough that the resulting micro-chipping doesn't noticeably impact overall sharpness.

I suspect that may also be what happened with the Holtey A2 iron that Konrad Sauer describes as breaking down "more like O1".

[Patrick Chase]

No modern PM or A2 steel alloys in any of my tools. W1 and 01 steel has served my needs and I work with some fairly tough Aussie timbers.

This makes complete sense. If I had your preferences and requirements I'd do the same thing, and I have a fair number of HCS/O1 tools laying around for applications where I don't want to deal with the hassle of exotic honing materials/techniques.

My only objection was to the claim that specific alloys are "the best" or "superior", period. I don't think that any two people around here can agree on what attributes to consider when ranking irons, and even if they could they'd probably still have different preferences if they don't hone the same way. That's really been my only point in this entire discussion (that, and something besides a difference between steels is going on with the OP :-)

[James Waldron]

No modern PM or A2 steel alloys in any of my tools. W1 and 01 steel has served my needs and I work with some fairly tough Aussie timbers.

Are you criticizing those who don't stick with the "tried and true" W1 and O1 or is there some other point you're trying to make?

No one has said that those steels don't get quite sharp; how long they maintain that sharpness is an issue for some, not so much for others. And some like the time on the stones as much as the time using the edge. And quite a few folks don't have the stones for the A2 or PM-V11 or other PM alloys and many seem not to have gotten the memo about the limitations of softer abrasives for honing these demanding alloys.

It's a good thing that you do good work on fairly tough Aussie timbers with W1 and O1 blades. And we all know you produce some fine work, but it's fairly tough to find your reasoning for the implied rejecting (?)/avoiding (?)/demeaning (?) of the A2 and PM alloys.

I, for one, don't have access to your tough Aussie timber. I do work ipe at times, and I've done so with O1 blades with decent success. On the other hand, I've also learned that O1 isn't the easiest way to approach the wavy, interlocked grain of this incredibly hard wood and given a choice, I'll go with my PM-V11 every time. Sometimes I have to make do, because I don't have PM-V11 blades for every edge tool in my shop. When necessary, I follow Ronnie's mandate, HTFU and get on with it. And hope for an offering of PM-V11 replacements for a wider range of tools someday.

After all, I'm a sailor and used to hard ships.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm, things getting a bit combative here?

I'll just stick to the irons that came with the planes I buy. I seem to only need to sharpen them about every other project.....which is all I ask. Works for what I do in my little shop.

I have no need to go on some Grand Crusade about the latest & "greatest" steel.

I go pop the popcorn.......

[Brian Holcombe]

Are you criticizing those who don't stick with the "tried and true" W1 and O1 or is there some other point you're trying to make?

No one has said that those steels don't get quite sharp; how long they maintain that sharpness is an issue for some, not so much for others. And some like the time on the stones as much as the time using the edge. And quite a few folks don't have the stones for the A2 or PM-V11 or other PM alloys and many seem not to have gotten the memo about the limitations of softer abrasives for honing these demanding alloys.

It's a good thing that you do good work on fairly tough Aussie timbers with W1 and O1 blades. And we all know you produce some fine work, but it's fairly tough to find your reasoning for the implied rejecting (?)/avoiding (?)/demeaning (?) of the A2 and PM alloys.

I, for one, don't have access to your tough Aussie timber. I do work ipe at times, and I've done so with O1 blades with decent success. On the other hand, I've also learned that O1 isn't the easiest way to approach the wavy, interlocked grain of this incredibly hard wood and given a choice, I'll go with my PM-V11 every time. Sometimes I have to make do, because I don't have PM-V11 blades for every edge tool in my shop. When necessary, I follow Ronnie's mandate, HTFU and get on with it. And hope for an offering of PM-V11 replacements for a wider range of tools someday.

After all, I'm a sailor and used to hard ships.

I think you may be reading into that reply far more than necessary. Stewie stated what he uses plain and simply, nothing offensive about what he's written there and provides evidence that hard woods can be worked with Olson HC steels with great success.

[Stewie Simpson]

Are you criticizing those who don't stick with the "tried and true" W1 and O1 or is there some other point you're trying to make?

No one has said that those steels don't get quite sharp; how long they maintain that sharpness is an issue for some, not so much for others. And some like the time on the stones as much as the time using the edge. And quite a few folks don't have the stones for the A2 or PM-V11 or other PM alloys and many seem not to have gotten the memo about the limitations of softer abrasives for honing these demanding alloys.

It's a good thing that you do good work on fairly tough Aussie timbers with W1 and O1 blades. And we all know you produce some fine work, but it's fairly tough to find your reasoning for the implied rejecting (?)/avoiding (?)/demeaning (?) of the A2 and PM alloys.

I, for one, don't have access to your tough Aussie timber. I do work ipe at times, and I've done so with O1 blades with decent success. On the other hand, I've also learned that O1 isn't the easiest way to approach the wavy, interlocked grain of this incredibly hard wood and given a choice, I'll go with my PM-V11 every time. Sometimes I have to make do, because I don't have PM-V11 blades for every edge tool in my shop. When necessary, I follow Ronnie's mandate, HTFU and get on with it. And hope for an offering of PM-V11 replacements for a wider range of tools someday.

After all, I'm a sailor and used to hard ships.

Jim; to better understand my reasoning for sticking with W1 and 01, you can refer to my comments in post # 18.

Bill; if the Stanley blades aren't coping with soft Tasmanian Pine, most likely the fault isn't with the steel. Some seek the assurance offered within exotic steels without fully understanding their is a lot of scope available within traditional steels to increase the longevity of the cutting edge. Taking the steel to a higher level of grit honing is 1 option. You also have the option to add a slight increase to the secondary bevel. It should be remembered that the traditional 25/30 rule is only there as a basic guideline, open to change dependant on the type of wood being worked. The old craftsmen were well aware of this. But the modern scribes tend to stick to its fundamentals like bees to honey, and then whinge and whine, when the cutting edge fails to hold up to more abrasive timbers, and that the only answer is to turn to exotic steels.

Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

Are you criticizing those who don't stick with the "tried and true" W1 and O1 or is there some other point you're trying to make?

In both law and marketing there is a concept called "puffery", which refers to words or phrases that serve mostly to increase the attractiveness of a product or argument, but have no deeper meaning or implication beyond that. For example I've seen lots of people using words like "durable" to describe alloy steels. We all do it, and I'm sure that if we each looked back at our own posting history we'd find plenty of occurrences.

"Tried and true" as used in this context is utterly harmless puffery, no different from what's said in most any other post. Nothing worth objecting to there IMO, and no deeper implications to worry about. As Stewie points out he's already explained his actual reasoning in any case.

[Matt Lau]

I'll chime in. Hopefully, bring some peace to things.

First, I agree with both sides.

I love PMV-11. I find that PMV-11, M3, and other high speed steels handle fairly well to serious abuse (like rough dimensioning african blackwood or a nasty stump). PMV-11 takes a significantly nicer edge than my A2 LV blade or my Mujingfang blade (maybe I just can't sharpen).
PMV-11 and the mujinfang blade both hold a "working edge" that lasts far longer than most white steel.

With Lee valley's excellent quality control, I'm not spending half of a precious day lapping over exotic stones.

However, I LOVE good white steel and other simple high carbon. After Stan Covington sent me some chisels, I got hooked on the edge quality and longevity that good, superbly heat treated white steel can offer. I find that those chisels get sharper, faster, and last a significant amount of time on pretty much anything that I do on solid wood--however, I will never use it on plywood or carbon fiber.

Just like a certain plane shines in various situations and falls flat on others, Steel is the same.


Oh, and regarding old steel. A lot of it is better than most of the modern junk manufacturers (Stanley, Nicholsen). However, there may occasionally be a bad batch of steel at times.


To Bill the OP, just enjoy your blade! Also, please post pics of some of your work! Have fun with your new plane blade.