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Thread: inset doors with face frame cabinets

  1. #1

    inset doors with face frame cabinets

    Hello again!
    I have a client wanting a number of cabinets with face frames and inset doors. Two questions. What hinge does this? I've seen some that attach to the inside of the frame. If this is the way to go the face frame becomes more structural (holds up the door) than the usual just cosmetics as around drawers. Should I route a groove in the stiles to glue to the frame then? Can I use 1/2 inch ply for the sides of the case or stick with 3/4 (worried about how much overlap I need to accommodate the hinge. In this picture it looks like there is a tenon on the front of the cabinet side.

    Scott

  2. #2
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    Well, you can certainly use good ol' knuckle hinges. (I like the look. Somehow inset doors look a bit older-style to me, and knuckle hinges have that flavor too.)

    But cup hinges can be used too. I use wood blocking inside the cabinet to provide the mounting surface for the hinge.

  3. #3
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    If you're using euro style cup hinges, use 3/4" for the carcasses and make the face frame stiles flush with the inside of the cabinet. Then you can use regular bases and full,1/2 and 0 overlay hinges as needed. The die cast face frame mount shown in the pic is a PIA to install, adjust and I've seen a lot of broken ones over the years.

    The olive knuckle hinges mentioned are really nice, but a quality set will run you $30 +- and they can be a bit fussy to mortise.
    Good ole butt hinges are great too.

  4. #4
    Ah! So if I install a block out to the overlap of the frame I can use a "normal" euro hinge. Yes?

  5. #5
    Understood. This lady insists on inset doors and no hinges showing. I like the idea of making frame flush to the inside carcase as well. Doors will be frame and panel and about 2 x 4. Shall I screw frame to carcass, plug and sand?

  6. #6
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    F Frame Attach

    It is not necessary to use a tongue and groove to attach a face frame to a carcass, but it is done at times to ensure alignment during the attachment process. You can simply glue/clamp the face frame to the ends of the carcass (assuming a good, clean fit up between the two surfaces as always) and it will stay forever. I usually make my f frames slightly over-width to give me "squiggle" room for the final alignment, then run a flush trim router bit around the outside of the f frame to get a close fit up along the side of the carcass. The tongue and groove certainly will not adversely affect the make up between the f frame and the carcass, but it is an additional couple of steps and, usually, you still need to run the flush trim bit or use a hand plane or something to get a flush fit on the side of the carcass due to the minute inconsistency of the plywood thickness. I do not believe I ever used less than 5/8" thickness ply for commercial kitchen cabinets-bathroom vanities-book shelf cases-etc, but cannot think exactly what would be the objection to 1/2" thickness as long as a f frame is added to the front and the back is inset into a rabbet so that both help maintain square and assure rigidity over the years.
    David

  7. #7
    Yes, agreed. I was only considering 1/2 inch for sides when thinking I had to have enough of the frame to overlap inside to install the hinge. I'm better now . . . . Now since these are inset doors it's crucial to get nice even spacing all around. Isn't there a kind of euro hinge that is slightly adjustable after install?

  8. #8
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    I use blum hinges, but there are others also for a "no hinge hardware on the outside of the cabinet" look. To use the blums with a face frame, you need their cranked hinges and their face frame bracket, and a minimum of 5/8" of the face frame extending inside the cabinet from the sides… unless you go with flush sides, then you need their panel mounting bracket and a different hinge. Get their catalog and study it.

    Or, call your local pro cabinet sales person and tell them what you need (easier - their catalog is for reference, not for learning your options).

    Most all good quality euro cup hinges and brackets have all the adjustments you need for centering a door in an opening.

    1/2" sides will work fine, either way. I prefer 3/4" sides.
    Last edited by Todd Burch; 12-17-2015 at 12:00 PM.

  9. #9
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    Blum (and others) make systems for just this sort of install. If the cabinet is flush with the frame trim or minimal overlay, use the standard wing bases (available with 0,3,6,9,18mm plate height) That should accommodate almost any combination. If the frame trim is very large (like the photo you reference) there are specialty mounting plates (175H5030 is the one shown). With face frames you do need to think about the stop.

    A recent set of kitchen frames I did had a face frame which stood proud of the door face by means of a bevel. The carcass was essentially flush with the face frame (the frame stood about 1/32" proud). The doors used standard small brass butt hinges. The carcass required a recess below to fit lights, so the valance essentially extended down below the carcass and behind the door. I thought it a clever and attractive design and the result was that the valence became the stop. I carried that same element through the lower cabinets (although the frame wrapped the opening) and it worked exceptionally well. Or you can build a separate stop, but it always looks "added on".

    On that cabinet I used Lamellos (biscuits) to attach the face frame, but Dominos would be as easy or easier and likely stronger. Even nails would work if painted finish. Possibly pocket screws. With the flush (or close to) carcass to face frame a dado would be tricky. You would need to rabbet the carcass first. More effort than it is worth.
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    Last edited by Bill Adamsen; 12-17-2015 at 9:08 PM. Reason: attaching face frame to carcass
    "the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools.” Confucius

  10. #10
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    There are a number of ways to handle euro hinges on inset face frame cabinetry. Those face frames clips are the bottom of my list. The entire force of the door as a lever is applied to those few little screws, it makes for quite a fulcrum, they almost invariably break in time, or the screws pull out. It's the recipe for call backs. At work we do lots of face frame inset, and much of it is designed with flush case sides, easy to hang doors....makes every other aspect of construction and finish more difficult. Trying to perfectly allign every side of every plywood/ frame intersection is challenging to say the least. Biscuits can help, but they are not perfect. Plywood edges aren't always as crisp as you might like, and off set can lead to some strange sanding especially in corners, or sand throughs in species with very thin veneers. On paint grade it's very challenging to mask the line between frame and interiors when using pre finished interiors, leaves a ridge, highlights any errors. Oh, but it makes hanging doors easy no? Can you tell I'm not a fan of flush sides?

    Last guy I worked under had a great system. Hold the plywood back 1/8", use a guage block to achieve an even 1/8" set back on all boxes at glue up, then use 3mm plates .....just like flush sides but no pesky joint line highlighted all over. Also of note is you need door stops top and bottom, best method for my taste is to raise the bottom deck up 3/8"-1/2" , glue blocking beneath so you still have good glue surface for the frame, edge this deck/blocking before cutting bottom deck to size, add a continuous strip to match the frame at the top, a little block looks like an after thought.

    Ive also seen guys just pack out the leading 2" behind the hinges to flush to give a hinge mount, it works but is far less seamless visually on interior.
    Last edited by Peter Quinn; 12-17-2015 at 12:35 PM.
    "A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel

  11. #11
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    I have different hinges and plates for different applications. I personally wouldn't try to flush the cabinet sides to the ff….just seems like cutting corners to me. I like the clips that mount to the back of the FF if I have the room for them. I also use spacers when needed. Familiarize yourself with the Blum catalog as it's your best friend for this type of stuff. There are several ways to space the hinges out from the sides including deeper clips and plastic spacer blocks. You can also find several sizes of spacer aftermarket. Do your research first and then design your boxes with that in mind. Personally I usually rip a 3/4" dado on the back of each stile about 1/8" from the edge. Makes it very easy to align to the box when attaching. And the 1/8" remaining gives you a little leeway when installing without sacrificing interior space, as flushing the frames to the outside is also not a great idea….IMHO.

    good luck,
    JeffD

  12. #12
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    I have done insets with euro hinges all different ways,but I prefer a different method than what has already been mentioned. I attach a mounting board behind the face frame that sticks out a heavy 1\2", and use a face frame mounting bracket for 1\2" overlay application, I have found this to be the simplest way.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Quinn View Post
    Last guy I worked under had a great system. Hold the plywood back 1/8", use a guage block to achieve an even 1/8" set back on all boxes at glue up, then use 3mm plates .....

    This is close. But unless you like 1" stiles, it doesn't really work. Or, you have to burn up a bunch of material and put another partition in if you have a set of doors hinging on the same stile. I suppose if you were building modular stuff it'd work, but gross.

    We use a very similar system though. A Blum full crank hinge with a plate mounted to the box work. On inset we typically use 1-7/8" stock for stiles. When you have a 3/4" partition behind that face frame, that leaves you with an 1-1/8" of placement options. Blum sells those cast plates in 0,3,6,9, and 18mm. We buy the 6,9,18mm plates. With a 3/8 pocket behind the frame, you use the 9mm plate, with a 3/4" pocket you use the 18mm plate. 3/8" pocket plus the 3/4" partition plus a 3/4" pocket = 1-7/8" Any variation of those numbers works, but to keep it simple your box material and hardware options have to add up to whatever your face frame is. When we first started doing inset, we used 2" stiles. 2" doesn't add up to anything with the hardware with 3/4" material and you end up using spacers. Which look terrible, and looks like a kindergarten class built the cabinets. The trick here is to keep your head out of your behind and when you lay out your boxwork you do so with this in mind. At first you'll feel a bit retarded, but once you get your brain functioning it's pretty easy. I whine at the Blum rep every time they come into the shop that they don't make a 1/2" or 5/8" plate. I also whine that there is no cam adjustment on those plates. They are adjustable, but it's a pain in the rear compared to just twisting a screw for height adjustment. Supposedly they have something in the works, but I've heard those lies from salesman before.

    The plates that mount behind the frame are terrible. We use them only when there is no other option. Doors in a corner where the boxwork goes all the way back and there is no partition or end to attach the hardware too is about the only time. Using as long a screw as possible, and a course one is about the best you can do. They also suck to mount. We have jigs and we pre-drill the frames before they are on the box, but you still have to stick you head in the opening to find the ding dong holes. They do have cam adjustment on the plate, so that's awesome. The behind the frame plates require a half crank hinge.

    I'd have to check, but I think we're drilling inset stuff at 21.5mm regardless of it being a half crank or full crank hinge.

    I've screwed around and built stuff every single way mentioned in this thread. Not a fan. My system is the easiest for me, but that's me, and your experience may be different. I can understand my system not being a good fit with the larger amount of different pieces you need if you are buying hardware for one project at a time. We don't. We buy plates usually a few hundred at a time and hinges by the 250 case, so it's not a big deal if we don't burn them up on one job, it'll get used on the next. Our purchasing of hardware is limited by the amount we can physically store. I wish I had a place to plop a pallet of hinges to get a larger price break, but we don't have the spare space.

  14. #14
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    My inset cabs have 1.5" face frame (with or without bead). Blum 71B3680 hinge and 175H5030.21 plate for face frame mounting (you need 1/2" minimum from FF to partition or end panel). If your partition/end is flush with the inside of the face frame you'll have to use a wing plate 175H919. 9mm plates give you 1/16 to 3/16 margins.

    Those part numbers are for Press-in Soft close. If you prefer INSERTA, 71B3690.
    -Lud

  15. #15
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    Salice now makes an inset system with various thickness plates,they gave me a sample board of all the plates,quite a range of seletion,I just haven't committed to trying it yet.I build all my cabinets in 1 piece, regardless of how big it gets to eliminate seams in the face frames, so I get a lot of variations in reveals behind partitions,so that system might be pretty beneficial.

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