Glowforge launched today

[Lee DeRaud]

That feature works only on material purchased from Glowforge that is marked with IR ink (or maybe it's UV ink).

Their business model suddenly starts to make sense.
And not in a good way.

[Lee DeRaud]

So my prediction of "material cartridges" almost happened. Next up, after a few mishaps inspired by their "safe as a DVD player" marketing, the machines will only operate if using their specially coded materials.

Like the latest-generation Keurig coffee makers?

[Doug Griffith]

Their business model suddenly starts to make sense.
And not in a good way.

Yep. Since they're releasing the firmware under a GPL license, now would be the time to start digging under the hood.

[Glen Monaghan]

Speaking of having fires, one of the glowforge videos showed a sizable tongue of flame shooting up out of a cut line with no apparent air assist. The flame tip was kissing the underside of the head for quite a while, which can't be good for the optics. Quite perversely, I was thinking about that yesterday when I had a fire break out while cutting a bunch of intricate shapes (lots of millimeter-sized holes and filigree patterns) from 1/8" acrylic.

I was standing over the laser engraver, weeding the paper mask from the 1st batch of shapes while cutting the 2nd batch, and my mind wondered off, thinking about that video and contemplating how many people have had fires while they left their lasers "for just a minute". I recalled how others on this list have talked about the problems of designing some sort of flame/fire sensor, or had set up cameras and monitors so they could keep an eye on the working laser while they did some work on their computer or took care of some other business across the shop from their laser. So there I stood over the laser, weeding mask, thinking about life and the universe, and sort of looking down into the engraver, when I suddenly realized that there was a flickering bright yellow light in the machine. Refocussing my eyes from the part I was weeding, I saw a yellow flame burning a few inches away from where the laser was currently cutting.

I managed to dump half of that first batch of shapes onto the floor as I flipped the lid up, snatched and pumped the spay bottle filled with water, and put the fire out.

From the looks of things, the fire was caused by cutting some of the fine filigree near the edge of the acrylic sheet, allowing localized heating that was sufficient to catch the paper mask on fire (which was why the flame was yellow rather than the nearly clear flame from burning acrylic). Back when I first starting cutting these designs, I had frequent flareups and figured it was due to too much dwell time cutting in a small area. Consequently, I turned off vector optimization and manually broke up and re-ordered the cut vectors to skip around the design, never cutting continuously in one small area for long. I also jacked up the air assist pressure to help blow out any flames that might pop up. Those changes virtually eliminated the flareups. Apparently, this time I was cutting close enough to the edge of the acrylic sheet that one of the more intricate cuts was able to heat that area just enough, and the laser was just finishing one of the shapes and jumped away to start another, so the air assist had no impact on the burning mask... Thing is, I've had a couple of small fires before and so am a bit paranoid about it. I was standing there, "watching" my laser and yet I didn't notice the fire until it was big enough to deposit smoke on the underside of the lid. I was running strong air assist. I'd reconfigured the job to minimize the chance of fire. But I was "multi tasking" and not really watching closely and a self-sustaining fire was able to catch. I was fortunate that the only damage was the one shape ruined by the fire. The machine's acrylic lid was undamaged and the smoke wiped right off the underside. So I lucked out.

When I think of all the horror stories about people cutting their hands in table saws, burning themselves with propane torches, crushing/amputating fingers in metal brakes, falling off ladders, and all manner of other dumb-@ssed things we do to ourselves these days because we don't truly pay attention to what we are doing, I do expect there will be a significant growth in serious fires as laser engravers/cutters become more ubiquitous. This has nothing to do with the make or model of laser, it's all about the operator...

[Matt McCoy]

So my prediction of "material cartridges" almost happened. Next up, after a few mishaps inspired by their "safe as a DVD player" marketing, the machines will only operate if using their specially coded materials.

Doug: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you predicted only proprietary cartridges. That is not the case. Material sourced, cut-to-size, and marked for for ease-of-use seems to be what they want to provide in addition to a users own stock. Although, you appear to be doubling-down with the "specially coded materials". Hopefully you don't visit Vegas too often.

[Anthony Scira]

Im just saying if the launch at MakerFaire was this rocky I think all those preorder people will be sorely disappointed.

[Matt McCoy]

Speaking of having fires, one of the glowforge videos showed a sizable tongue of flame shooting up out of a cut line with no apparent air assist. The flame tip was kissing the underside of the head for quite a while, which can't be good for the optics. Quite perversely, I was thinking about that yesterday when I had a fire break out while cutting a bunch of intricate shapes (lots of millimeter-sized holes and filigree patterns) from 1/8" acrylic.

I was standing over the laser engraver, weeding the paper mask from the 1st batch of shapes while cutting the 2nd batch, and my mind wondered off, thinking about that video and contemplating how many people have had fires while they left their lasers "for just a minute". I recalled how others on this list have talked about the problems of designing some sort of flame/fire sensor, or had set up cameras and monitors so they could keep an eye on the working laser while they did some work on their computer or took care of some other business across the shop from their laser. So there I stood over the laser, weeding mask, thinking about life and the universe, and sort of looking down into the engraver, when I suddenly realized that there was a flickering bright yellow light in the machine. Refocussing my eyes from the part I was weeding, I saw a yellow flame burning a few inches away from where the laser was currently cutting.

I managed to dump half of that first batch of shapes onto the floor as I flipped the lid up, snatched and pumped the spay bottle filled with water, and put the fire out.

From the looks of things, the fire was caused by cutting some of the fine filigree near the edge of the acrylic sheet, allowing localized heating that was sufficient to catch the paper mask on fire (which was why the flame was yellow rather than the nearly clear flame from burning acrylic). Back when I first starting cutting these designs, I had frequent flareups and figured it was due to too much dwell time cutting in a small area. Consequently, I turned off vector optimization and manually broke up and re-ordered the cut vectors to skip around the design, never cutting continuously in one small area for long. I also jacked up the air assist pressure to help blow out any flames that might pop up. Those changes virtually eliminated the flareups. Apparently, this time I was cutting close enough to the edge of the acrylic sheet that one of the more intricate cuts was able to heat that area just enough, and the laser was just finishing one of the shapes and jumped away to start another, so the air assist had no impact on the burning mask... Thing is, I've had a couple of small fires before and so am a bit paranoid about it. I was standing there, "watching" my laser and yet I didn't notice the fire until it was big enough to deposit smoke on the underside of the lid. I was running strong air assist. I'd reconfigured the job to minimize the chance of fire. But I was "multi tasking" and not really watching closely and a self-sustaining fire was able to catch. I was fortunate that the only damage was the one shape ruined by the fire. The machine's acrylic lid was undamaged and the smoke wiped right off the underside. So I lucked out.

When I think of all the horror stories about people cutting their hands in table saws, burning themselves with propane torches, crushing/amputating fingers in metal brakes, falling off ladders, and all manner of other dumb-@ssed things we do to ourselves these days because we don't truly pay attention to what we are doing, I do expect there will be a significant growth in serious fires as laser engravers/cutters become more ubiquitous. This has nothing to do with the make or model of laser, it's all about the operator...

Glen: As mentioned and linked, the machine has air assist.

Your last sentence is spot-on.

[Bert Kemp]

Glad you didn't burn up anything to critical and yes its mostly about the operator. These machines are geared toward the general public and not machine operators, who are generally more aware of the dangers associated with operating them.These are being advertised as safe as a DVD player and that's an out and out LIE. I can leave my DVD player running unattended for hours and I don't have to worry about my house burning down. But would I run out and wash the car while the laser is cutting. Or leave a kid to watch it, NO! but thats what's going to happen with these. They have to start advertising safety procedures while operating them if they ever get them to market. My laser has a yellow caution fire hazard sticker on it along with all the other warning stickers, Radiation, high voltage ect ect. I don't know maybe the glowforge does too, but here just saying how safe it is.

[Doug Griffith]

Doug: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you predicted only proprietary cartridges. That is not the case. Material sourced, cut-to-size, and marked for for ease-of-use seems to be what they want to provide in addition to a users own stock. Although, you appear to be doubling-down with the "specially coded materials". Hopefully you don't visit Vegas too often.

I actually hit Vegas all the time. I do a lot of business out there.

Obviously proprietary cartridges are out of the equation. Their hardware isn't built for them. My thinking now shifts to "proprietary materials" where their camera system (the one that is already in place and used to read their specially coded materials) will be used as a means to ensure that only their materials can be used. The system is in place already so it's just a matter of coding. Since they're on the cloud, it would be an easy upgrade.

I actually think it might be a good idea for their lower-end systems. It would help prevent loading materials such as PVC or teflon. It won't help keep the house from burning down but it would be a start.

[Scott Shepherd]

As to the "implied safety", well, it's no different than any other laser companies marketing videos. So trotec doesn't mention fire danger in their marketing videos and it's fine, but glowforge doesn't and they're deceptive?

I don't recall any laser manufacturers marketing commercials so wrapped around kids and doing this from your kitchen table, or making comments in their marketing like "It's safe for ANYONE to use". If you have a conversation with any sales rep from any of the big boys, they will tell you that the machines are very capable of burning your house down.

I'm just not understanding all the hostility to a really cool product

I haven't seen any hostility towards the product. Can you show one quote where it's said to be a stupid product? Nope? In fact, most of us said it's a cool product with some innovative features. I'm not sure how many times I have to said it, the problems some of us have with it isn't the product, it's the claims made to sell it.

[Matt McCoy]

I actually hit Vegas all the time. I do a lot of business out there.

Obviously proprietary cartridges are out of the equation. Their hardware isn't built for them. My thinking now shifts to "proprietary materials" where their camera system (the one that is already in place and used to read their specially coded materials) will be used as a means to ensure that only their materials can be used. The system is in place already so it's just a matter of coding. Since they're on the cloud, it would be an easy upgrade.

I actually think it might be a good idea for their lower-end systems. It would help prevent loading materials such as PVC or teflon. It won't help keep the house from burning down but it would be a start.

OK, so we agree that the proprietary cartidges is not a thing.

I also agree with you that coded material packs would be a good idea for someone getting started, which addresses safety concerns by some. Perhaps a parental control feature, like other devices, could be enabled to prevent firing when loaded with dangerous materials. No UV code, no laser.

I believe it has already been mentioned that users will be able to use their own stock and manually adjust settings.

[Matt McCoy]

...I haven't seen any hostility towards the product...

Good morning Scott. You just blew my mind.

[Matt McCoy]

Im just saying if the launch at MakerFaire was this rocky I think all those preorder people will be sorely disappointed.

Hey there Anthony: Apple, Honda, Microsoft (amongst lots others) have tripped on launch. I'm sure they will be OK.

[Scott Shepherd]

Good morning Scott. You just blew my mind.

That's the issue Matt, some of you are seeing this as hostility, when no one's meaning it that way. Show me hostility towards the PRODUCT because I'm not seeing it. If we question any single thing about it, then you immediately call us hostile towards it. It could do horrible things and if we bring it up as something to be concerned about, then we're "off the rails" about it all and hostile. Unless we say that it's the greatest innovation that industry has ever seen and the guy is brilliant, and the company is fantastic, then we get bashed about it.

I'm not sure how to discuss it when no matter what we say, we are shown non-related examples to try and dismiss the concern. If you don't think fire in a laser is something for a consumer level product to deal with, then I don't know how to respond to that. We had a fire less than a year ago that did damage to our machine. If I wasn't standing right there, it would have burned the machine, then the building to the ground. Last week, while watching acrylic cut, I saw a substantial flame build up. I was able to stop it within seconds. Had I been looking the other way for 10-15 seconds, we would have had a very serious fire.

Maybe you haven't experienced a fire yet, I don't know. I have, and it's something that I, and others, are VERY concerned about on a consumer level product. Forgive me for being so "hostile" when I'm concerned about people burning their homes down, with the possibility of kids inside it. Silly me, oh, all the hostility I have built up inside.....

[Doug Griffith]

That's the issue Matt, some of you are seeing this as hostility, when no one's meaning it that way. Show me hostility towards the PRODUCT because I'm not seeing it. If we question any single thing about it, then you immediately call us hostile towards it. It could do horrible things and if we bring it up as something to be concerned about, then we're "off the rails" about it all and hostile. Unless we say that it's the greatest innovation that industry has ever seen and the guy is brilliant, and the company is fantastic, then we get bashed about it.

I'm not sure how to discuss it when no matter what we say, we are shown non-related examples to try and dismiss the concern. If you don't think fire in a laser is something for a consumer level product to deal with, then I don't know how to respond to that. We had a fire less than a year ago that did damage to our machine. If I wasn't standing right there, it would have burned the machine, then the building to the ground. Last week, while watching acrylic cut, I saw a substantial flame build up. I was able to stop it within seconds. Had I been looking the other way for 10-15 seconds, we would have had a very serious fire.

Maybe you haven't experienced a fire yet, I don't know. I have, and it's something that I, and others, are VERY concerned about on a consumer level product. Forgive me for being so "hostile" when I'm concerned about people burning their homes down, with the possibility of kids inside it. Silly me, oh, all the hostility I have built up inside.....

I could be perceived as hostile as well. Just pointing things out and making predictions.

Imagine when a kid tries to cut out hundreds of snowflakes at the same time by cutting an entire pad of paper... then the doorbell rings.