Really need expert advice on router size and type???

[Mike Cutler]

Just to show y'all an example of what I'm cutting out. I'm just a novice user on routers. I used to use a rotozip saw to cut them out and then discovered the router/template method. Do any of you think with a higher HP router, I could get away with sticking with the 1/4" shank bits?

Also, is there some kind of router that has an easier method to loosen the collet to change the bits other than the wrench deal? Hate to play the girl card, but, yeah, it takes me a long time sometimes to loosen the collet because I don't have the hand/arm strength
Attachment 317187

Lucy
If I am understanding you correctly, you are using only a router to make this form, and others like it? In other words you don't remove the bulk of the waste with a jig saw, or a small bandsaw.

I would disagree, without seeing more, that multiple passes are the cause of the small ridge you're getting. I've done some pretty large template work, and haven't had that problem be a function of the router, but of the template not having a perfect 90 degree vertical edge. Often times the template takes much longer to make than the workpiece material. The other cause is not clearing the debris as you router. (This is assuming that you have centered the template busing and bit. Are you using a center finding tool when setting up your router base/template bushing?)
If you're getting that mermaid's nose with a router only, that's pretty good.

Breaking router collet nuts loosecan be a pain. They really can get locked on there during use. Generally the wrenches that come with the router are short and "crappy", which doesn't help. It could be that if you get the same sized open end wrenches that they will be longer and give you more leverage. I have the larger Festool routers, and even they can be a "little manly" to break loose. I've never used a "quick change collet", but it's something you might consider.

Increasing a router's horsepower is only part of it. The router you're using, and any larger router, will have no problem over powering a 1/4" shank bit. You have enough power for a 1/4" shank. The bit right now is your limiting factor.

[Kent A Bathurst]

My turn........

I have a bunch of the PC 690-style routers - that is what you have. SOme old fixed speed 1.5 HP, some newer VS 1.75 HP. Would not bother me to use them in this application - - - the downside is that you might not be able to do it in one pass. A bigger HP router has its advantages, but you also realize its disadvantages. I have no problem with the 690 - I think you are overdriving it currently.

I have the impression that the PC 8xx series is now officially junk - get the DW instead, if you go to this class starcruiser. The PC 75xx is still good, but man - I would not want to be wraslin' that horse around - it is best suited to a router table, IMO.

Or - go full-on D-Day on the problem, and get a used overhead pin router.......

Reading your process description, I am all but certain that your template sits on top of the 1/2" ply, and the "template guide" you refer to is the brass templet bushing, correct? Just double-checking on important detail.

Two options:

Multiple passes:

Template on top, brass templet bushing installed in the base plate; Use a 1/4" cutter diameter, on a plunge base. Make 3 pases at about 3/16" each. If you can feel/hear the motor bogging down, you are pushing too hard/fast.

Zip then route:

Do a 2-step process. Don't know what you used as a guide/template when you used the Rotozip?
But - the way to do this method is to use the rotozip and cut out the waste - but stay off the final line. Then closer you can get to the line, the better - but stay just off of it.

Use the template and the router - but with a flush-trim bit instead of the spiral. You are taking off much less waste in total, plus you are only cutting on one side of the bit - much less load on the router.

You also have the option of a "plain" flush trim, or a top-bearing flush trim that runs against the template without your brass bushings installed. You can even us a bottom-bearing bit, and put the template underneath the 1/2" ply.

[Tom M King]

1/4" collets will fit in the larger PC routers. I use a 1/2" at every opportunity though.

[John TenEyck]

Hey, I'm a guy and still have trouble with the collet wrenches. I tighten them by hand, but gave up trying to loosen them with just hand power long ago. I put the two wrenches in place, the one on the shaft sits against my workbench, the one on the collet sits higher up, and then I whack that one with a rubber mallet. A couple of medium whacks and it's loose enough to finish by hand. I've been doing that for over 20 years on my PC 690 with no ill effects so I consider that as proof enough that it's safe to do.

John

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

You put the two wrenches on so that you can squeeze them together in your hands. Makes it very easy to get it very tight, and also to remove them.

Personally, I don't think what you're doing should be causing any damage to your router at all. I've worked in big cabinet shops for 20 years, using porter cable 690's almost exclusively. We've probably got 20 in our shop right now, and take much heavier cuts than you're doing on a daily bases, and we never have any failures. These routers last for years of heavy use.

A 1/4" spiral through plywood is not a heavy cut. Going to a 1/2" spiral would be a much heavier cut, but I've seen a 690 cut through 3/4" plywood in one pass with a 1/2" spiral with no issues.

What parts are they replacing when you have it repaired?

[Kent A Bathurst]

You put the two wrenches on so that you can squeeze them together in your hands. Makes it very easy to get it very tight, and also to remove them.

Exactly - leave 1" or so gap between the wrenches, and squeeze to tighten. Swap the positions and squeeze to loosen. The router rotation wants to tighten the collet, so you don't need a lot of muscle to tighten.

Me too on the 690...I rough-cut 6/4 [finished to 1-5/16"] HM on a band saw - making 20" round tabouret table tops - and then run a 690 on a center jig, with a straight cut bit, and probably 4 passes, and it works great. I have not been able to kill one yet.

[Lucy Langlois]

There are two issues with the PC stock wrenches. First, there is no offset for the bottom wrench (not on mine, anyway) and they're awkward to keep aligned. Second, you're at a straight from the point of force, rather than an angle with a crowfoot wrench, and get whatever torque you generate with force at the end. You can get more torque with a crowfoot. Try this. Using the stock wrenches, line up the bottom wrench and offset the top wrench the correct direction depending on whether you're tightening or loosening. You want the top wrench and bottom wrench slightly offset so they fit in one hand. Apply the force by squeezing one hand together against both wrenches; don't use two hands. This "may" apply enough force (and thus torque) without risk of scraping your knuckles if one of the wrenches comes loose (as is common using the two-hand method). If you cannot consistently generate enough torque this way, consider a crowfoot wrench. Also, there are after-market offset wrenches (typically bottom) to deal with the awkwardness of using two straight wrenches at two different points.

Thanks Jeff, yes, I actually do that with the 2 wrenches to tighten and I'm about to embarrass myself big time and say it never occurred to me to do the same thing to loosen. duh (feeling dumb!) oh well, it's all about live and learn

All this is JMHO and not intended to start any brand-loyalty wars ;-)

Routers are pretty personal items but, I'll risk giving my opinion based on those I've kept and those I've sent packing. Power to weight ratio for your task puts you in the 2-1/4HP area. Variable speed can help you find a sweet spot for the complexity of the template being followed. Do not use the router as a jigsaw to make the entire cut; cut close to the line with a jigsaw and then trim to the template with the router.

With the exception of the 621 and 625 I would ignore DeWalt routers. All Porter Cable products are suspect at this point in history. Bosch is hanging in there but their models can be "gadgety" with special features you may not want or need but, still have to pay for. I haven't bought a Milwaukee in years and so don't know their current quality. I have a half a dozen Milwaukees in all power ranges and they do nothing but work. The same can be said of older Porter Cable routers; they just keep going.

To your statement about wrenches, use two wrenches. If your router doesn't use two wrenches I'd consider another. I do bit changes too often to be annoyed with a poor collet system. With two wrenches you neither require great strength to tighten or loosen the collet. If you have a router that accepts it, collets that use an allen wrench are available for $60 or so.

I absolutely appreciate any and all input! This was my first router and I'm still learning. I read reviews about it and just went with this PC that I have. I did not think about cutting close to the shape first with a jigsaw, makes sense like it wouldn't put as much strain on the router. I'm hopeful to find a solution to keep using the 1/4" bits so I don't have to re-work 7 large patterns plus the 1/2" bits are so expensive and the super big routers seem really overwhelming to me.
I just need something for this one purpose since I don't use it for anything else.
See above about my brain lapse on the wrench loosening!

My turn........

I have a bunch of the PC 690-style routers - that is what you have. SOme old fixed speed 1.5 HP, some newer VS 1.75 HP. Would not bother me to use them in this application - - - the downside is that you might not be able to do it in one pass. A bigger HP router has its advantages, but you also realize its disadvantages. I have no problem with the 690 - I think you are overdriving it currently.

I have the impression that the PC 8xx series is now officially junk - get the DW instead, if you go to this class starcruiser. The PC 75xx is still good, but man - I would not want to be wraslin' that horse around - it is best suited to a router table, IMO.

Or - go full-on D-Day on the problem, and get a used overhead pin router.......

Reading your process description, I am all but certain that your template sits on top of the 1/2" ply, and the "template guide" you refer to is the brass templet bushing, correct? Just double-checking on important detail.

Two options:

Multiple passes:

Template on top, brass templet bushing installed in the base plate; Use a 1/4" cutter diameter, on a plunge base. Make 3 pases at about 3/16" each. If you can feel/hear the motor bogging down, you are pushing too hard/fast.

Zip then route:

Do a 2-step process. Don't know what you used as a guide/template when you used the Rotozip?
But - the way to do this method is to use the rotozip and cut out the waste - but stay off the final line. Then closer you can get to the line, the better - but stay just off of it.

Use the template and the router - but with a flush-trim bit instead of the spiral. You are taking off much less waste in total, plus you are only cutting on one side of the bit - much less load on the router.

You also have the option of a "plain" flush trim, or a top-bearing flush trim that runs against the template without your brass bushings installed. You can even us a bottom-bearing bit, and put the template underneath the 1/2" ply.

Hi Kent! Yes, I have my pattern on top of the plywood and have the metal PC template guide that fits down in the router base plate and goes along the edge of the mdf pattern. I have tried going multiple passes, I mentioned above and it has always left me with a bump in the middle of my shape and then I spend a lot of time sanding that off. :/
I do have a plunge base that came with mine and I've never used it. usually my patterns come right to the edge of the 4 x 4 sheet of ply and I just come in right at that edge with the fixed base.
When I was using the rotozip, I would draw my pattern on then free hand follow with the rotozip... pain in the @ss plus it had a tendency to chew up the edges and left a lot of sanding. I was so happy when I found the router method on youtube ha! But yes, that makes sense, I believe Glenn mentioned above too about cutting excess off first.

I started like this from the vids I saw on youtube of a man cutting out his (much) smaller shapes this way and I just used everything he did so I know nothing of the other bits... except I did "try" using one of the "bearing" bits (?)... with the little roller thing and just didn't feel as comfortable as when I went to the template guide.

Ok, so go with a flush trim bit if I am basically just cutting the excess off on the edge?

1/4" collets will fit in the larger PC routers. I use a 1/2" at every opportunity though.

Thanks! I didn't realize that.

So I think I will look at the DW 621 that y'all mentioned or maybe look at a Milwaukee

[Lucy Langlois]

Lucy
If I am understanding you correctly, you are using only a router to make this form, and others like it? In other words you don't remove the bulk of the waste with a jig saw, or a small bandsaw.

I would disagree, without seeing more, that multiple passes are the cause of the small ridge you're getting. I've done some pretty large template work, and haven't had that problem be a function of the router, but of the template not having a perfect 90 degree vertical edge. Often times the template takes much longer to make than the workpiece material. The other cause is not clearing the debris as you router. (This is assuming that you have centered the template busing and bit. Are you using a center finding tool when setting up your router base/template bushing?)
If you're getting that mermaid's nose with a router only, that's pretty good.

Breaking router collet nuts loosecan be a pain. They really can get locked on there during use. Generally the wrenches that come with the router are short and "crappy", which doesn't help. It could be that if you get the same sized open end wrenches that they will be longer and give you more leverage. I have the larger Festool routers, and even they can be a "little manly" to break loose. I've never used a "quick change collet", but it's something you might consider.

Increasing a router's horsepower is only part of it. The router you're using, and any larger router, will have no problem over powering a 1/4" shank bit. You have enough power for a 1/4" shank. The bit right now is your limiting factor.

Yes, Mike, I didn't know or think about cutting off excess. Hmmm... on the ridge I'm getting. I don't know. I used my jigsaw and rotozip to make them out of Mdf and was careful to sand them and make them as clean as possible. Yes, I am using just the router to do that whole thing, face and all. That is the largest mermaid at 4ft tall, I make smaller ones and I'm still able to get good face definition .. this is my smallest size and about 34" wide.

Yes, I mentioned above that I feel pretty stupid telling y'all that I've used the 2 wrenches to tighten the collet by squeezing them together but it never occurred to me to use the same process to loosen. I was trying to basically pull them apart in opposite directions... don't laugh

I do not know about centering the template guide or using a center finding tool
So... what bit should I be using?
mermaid mini HZ dark shells.jpg

[Lucy Langlois]

Hey, I'm a guy and still have trouble with the collet wrenches. I tighten them by hand, but gave up trying to loosen them with just hand power long ago. I put the two wrenches in place, the one on the shaft sits against my workbench, the one on the collet sits higher up, and then I whack that one with a rubber mallet. A couple of medium whacks and it's loose enough to finish by hand. I've been doing that for over 20 years on my PC 690 with no ill effects so I consider that as proof enough that it's safe to do.

John

That's exactly what I've been doing to loosen! hitting with the mallet

[Tom M King]

Whiteside has quick turnaround on bit sharpening. I only buy Whiteside bits unless extremely unusual circumstances. Maybe don't try this at home, but I use full sized wrenches. If you do use full sized wrenches, don't try to put a lot of force on them. It doesn't take much. I have stacks of the stamped wrenches that come with the routers that have never been used.

[Mel Fulks]

I would try a SINGLE flute 1/2 inch bit. It will cut MUCH faster and will not strain router you have now. That router should have a 1/2 collet with it ,if it doesn't ..they are cheap. Yes ,you will have to change the templates.

[Jim Dwight]

Roughing with a jigsaw and then finishing with the router is a good plan. I really like my Bosch jigsaw - they are known for jigsaws. A way to do much the same thing with just the router and the same bits would be to move to a slightly larger template guide, then cut the shape in a couple passes, then switch to the template guide you are using to trim the last 1/16 in one pass. No ridge this way and not over-stressing the router. I have two mid-sized PC 690s and they have never even needed brushes. I've used them to do panel raising with bits over 3 inches diameter (slowed down). I had to make multiple passes but they did fine. I think you have an issue learning a way to use the tool, not with the tool itself.

I would not increase the size of the bit to 1/2 inch. You will be removing a lot more material making the situation even worse. A 1/4 spiral bit is fine for this.

Cheapest way to do this is a new template guide. Cut in two passes with the larger (I suggest 1/16 larger) template guide and then clean it up in one pass with the smaller template guide. I would also use an older bit to cut the shape and then a newer one to clean up the cut. You may save a bit on bits this way too.

Jim

[Mel Fulks]

I have rapidly cut 3/4 inch plywood in one pass many times. Worked in commercial shops for many years,most did not have ANY single flute bits til they saw mine. Going to single flute is like using a rip saw instead of a fine tooth saw.

[Rick Fisher]

I would use the template to draw the shape;
use a good jig saw to cut away all but 1/8" ..
then put the template back on and use a 1/2" bit on your router to clean it up ..


I use lots of 1/4" bits but I prefer 1/2" shanks for long term cutting where heat can build up.

I like your work ..

[Lucy Langlois]

You put the two wrenches on so that you can squeeze them together in your hands. Makes it very easy to get it very tight, and also to remove them.

Personally, I don't think what you're doing should be causing any damage to your router at all. I've worked in big cabinet shops for 20 years, using porter cable 690's almost exclusively. We've probably got 20 in our shop right now, and take much heavier cuts than you're doing on a daily bases, and we never have any failures. These routers last for years of heavy use.

A 1/4" spiral through plywood is not a heavy cut. Going to a 1/2" spiral would be a much heavier cut, but I've seen a 690 cut through 3/4" plywood in one pass with a 1/2" spiral with no issues.

What parts are they replacing when you have it repaired?

well that's refreshing to hear. I don't know off the top of my head, I know brushes was one of the parts.