Question on Marking/Measuring

[Robert Hazelwood]

As something of a newbie, it seems to be that after sharp tools, the most important thing in executing joinery is to get a nice, clean, accurate layout. I don't see it talked about as much as other aspects of woodworking, but there are obviously a lot of skills and techniques to be learned.

Along those lines, I'm curious how you guys deal with marking something like a mortise (say where a leg goes into a workbench top) when it is too far from a reference edge to use a gauge? Ideally you would use a mortise gauge with the same width setting for the mortise and tenon, but if you can't get the gauge out to the mortise, would you just measure with a ruler/tape? I think that would be fine for setting the first line of the mortise from the edge, but how do you get the exact spacing between the first and second lines so that the mortise width exactly matches the tenon? Without relying on sighting down a ruler perfectly?

I have a couple of ideas but I'd like to see what other people do. Maybe I'm over-thinking it and should just use the ruler?

Also, if anyone has any advice in general on marking/measuring, besides what I'm asking about, I'd be happy if that were shared in this thread.

Thanks,

Robert

[Chris Griggs]

I use a combo square and a knife to gauge distances longer then my marking gauge. If the mark is long I'll make a tic mark at each end of the where I need the line and then connect the tic marks using a straight edge of some kind and my knife. If the distance is short I'll just move the knife with the end of the square. for a mortise mark one wall for all mortises first using one setting on the square, then adjust the square and mark the 2nd line for on the new setting.

Thinking about it more, the other thing I do is just to set the combo square whole number setting and then just make knife tic marks where I want both mortise walls based on the ruler line. For I for some reason need to mark a mortise that started 10" from a boards edge and was 1/2" wide I would set the combo square to 1" (since it can't be set on 0), make one tic mark at the 11" ruler line and another at the 11 1/2" ruler line. That plenty accurate enough, especially if your going to fit your tenons to the mortise.

A panel gauge would work too, probably better, but I don't have one.

[Jim Koepke]

As something of a newbie, it seems to be that after sharp tools, the most important thing in executing joinery is to get a nice, clean, accurate layout. I don't see it talked about as much as other aspects of woodworking, but there are obviously a lot of skills and techniques to be learned.

Along those lines, I'm curious how you guys deal with marking something like a mortise (say where a leg goes into a workbench top) when it is too far from a reference edge to use a gauge? Ideally you would use a mortise gauge with the same width setting for the mortise and tenon, but if you can't get the gauge out to the mortise, would you just measure with a ruler/tape? I think that would be fine for setting the first line of the mortise from the edge, but how do you get the exact spacing between the first and second lines so that the mortise width exactly matches the tenon? Without relying on sighting down a ruler perfectly?

I have a couple of ideas but I'd like to see what other people do. Maybe I'm over-thinking it and should just use the ruler?

Also, if anyone has any advice in general on marking/measuring, besides what I'm asking about, I'd be happy if that were shared in this thread.

Thanks,

Robert

Robert,

I see you have been around for a while, but welcome to the Creek anyway. You do not list a location in your profile. You may live near another member who would be happy to meet with you and show you how they do this.

For me it is kind of how Chris described using a combo square. Often a large framing square gets used for my layouts. Another tool is an old Stanley Odd Jobs #1, which works like a combination square.

Then the real trick is making it square to the work piece and then either trimming the tenon to fit the mortise or the mortise to fit the tenon.

My adventure in wood working started with me trying to make precise measurements and nothing fitting together quite right. More recently my measuring has turned to making sure my numbers haven't become flipped in my dyslexic mind. Sometimes lengths like 14-1/2" are marked on the 1/2" mark on the wrong side of the 14. This is where a story stick helps me.

Parts are cut to the layout and then trimmed to fit.

Makes me think of a joke from my draughtsman days, "cut to suit, hammer to fit, paint to match."

If you use the tenon to lay out the mortise, just remember your lines may all be outside of the waste area. This used to get me on dovetails when marking with a pencil.

Took me awhile to learn cutting to the line isn't cutting through the line.

More important than an accurate layout is how the work from the layout is performed. Then learning to layout for the process that follows.

With a layout for cutting on my bandsaw most of the time for something like a resaw or rip the line is set to allow for planing off the saw marks. Then the cut is made to split the line. Since the blade is wider than the line the stock is fed into the blade with the line centered on the blade.

Another layout trick is to use a large framing square for the first line of the lay out and then use a smaller square off of that for the other lines. Get a drawing triangle or two. These can be used off of the framing square or even off of each other to draw a layout.

jtk

[Tom McMahon]

Mark with a knife. Transfer direct measurements with dividers. Rarely use a ruler.

[Roger Nair]

Robert, I make crude but effective marking gauges that are a simple fixed tee that have sharpened hard screws as pins that work very well when laying out from common reference faces. I can fine tune the points with a file. Very good coincidence through out a project. I also use storypole layout methods, what works well for me is to markup tapes with colored sharpies, quick clamp the tape to end reference, align square to mark, retract tape, strike layout with awl and extend tape to next mark and repeat.

[Jim Matthews]

+1 on marking directly form the pieces in play.

Measuring, particularly at some distance from the registration edge will induce errors.
I'm not sure where you are on the Globe, but if there's a handtool class - the direct marking method is often shown.

It's the only way I can get all four legs of a table to reach the floor, at the same time.
It also makes for drawers that fit a given opening.

That, and you don't have to see itty-bitty lines in the dark - after dark.

I learned from Phil Lowe to use a marking square like a giant feeler gauge.
Get in close, with good lighting and set the square to the desired measurement.

Use a magnifying glass, if you need one (I do).

Tighten the beam so it can't shift.

Measuring off your reference face, register the body of the square solidly.
Use a knife to make a TIC mark, at the top of the piece to be marked.

Move the square down the same registration face, beyond the length of the mortise, and make another mark.
Connect the tic marks to form a straight line.

In practice, any more than twice the length of the cast iron face that's registered is suspect.
http://www.startwoodworking.com/post...ination-square

[Curt Putnam]

Panel gauge, story stick, combo square

[Roger Nair]

I also use trammels for direct transfer of lengths longer than practical for dividers. In general I try to template layout and avoid placing tic marks as much as possible.

[glenn bradley]

Mark with a knife. Transfer direct measurements with dividers. Rarely use a ruler.

This is a good thread as the discussion of 'measuring and marking' comes up much less than one might expect. Like some others, I have dimensions as a guide. Once I begin assembly, subsequent parts are measured off existing parts.

Marking:

• Knife for critical measurements.
  
  • Run along a straightedge, a saddle square or whatever suits the task at hand.
  
  
• .5mm pencil for most others.
  
  • This also fits the little holes in my Incra rulers of which I have two types.
  
  
• Red/blue double ended pencil for witness and reminder marks.
  
  • witness marks when planing a raised panel or fitting a door.
  • reminder marks of what is spoil and what is the keeper.
  • double end allows me to mark in red, goof up and re-mark in blue without stopping.

Measuring (the trick here is to get everything in your shop to agree. Replace those that don't with ones that do. This saves tons of grief in the long run):

• I have matching steel rules in 6", 12", 18", 24" and 36" which handle most of my measuring tasks.
  
  • It took a few tries but, all of these measure 'correctly' up to their lengths.
  
  
• PEC and Starrett combo squares, double squares LV L-R tape measures and pocket rules come in second in frequency of use.
  
  • The PEC stuff is nearly as nice as the Starrett for a fraction of the cost but, both are nice.
  • Double squares in 6" and 4" are in multiple locations around the shop, constantly used.
  • 12' x 1/2" Lee Valley left-to-right reading tapes that match my other rules and squares; one at the tablesaw and one at the bench.
  
  
• Setup blocks, 1-2-3 blocks, saddle squares and engineering squares are next.
  
  • Brass setup blocks with 1/8", 3/16" 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" sizes compliment my 1-2-3 blocks and come in handy for many, many things.
  • A saddle square is one of those things you'll wonder how you did without.
  • A good engineering square in 6" - 7" length is handy and a great thing to ask for on your birthday; I always have a list of things that I want, but that I am reluctant to spend the money on. Besides, people love to give you something your REALLY want ;-)
  
  
• 16" x 24" squares get used least but, that's just not the kind of work I do.
  
  • I have two decent ones; one aligned for outside measurements and one for inside.
  • Good quality squares of this type are available but, the price is outside the value I would get out of them. This does not mean you or someone else may find otherwise.

P.s. I almost forgot bar gauges. Great for internal measurements and assuring square on carcass and drawers.

[Roger Nair]

Something else to keep in mind, every little bit matters if you adopt a process of accumulated dimensions. It can be far easier to set the bounds, the overall dimensions and work inward fitting the pieces into the available space. Sometimes in material preparation more planing is needed than the ideal and since this the neanderthal forum, one should expect some material variation, how will you plan to account for the inevitable deviation? Evermore detailed revised plans? Or divided, modular, harmonic scales, maybe a little phi? My preference is to have a little fun with the internal layout and not get to crazy with dimensional certainty and get a feel for the material at hand.

[Roy Lindberry]

As something of a newbie, it seems to be that after sharp tools, the most important thing in executing joinery is to get a nice, clean, accurate layout. I don't see it talked about as much as other aspects of woodworking, but there are obviously a lot of skills and techniques to be learned.

Along those lines, I'm curious how you guys deal with marking something like a mortise (say where a leg goes into a workbench top) when it is too far from a reference edge to use a gauge? Ideally you would use a mortise gauge with the same width setting for the mortise and tenon, but if you can't get the gauge out to the mortise, would you just measure with a ruler/tape? I think that would be fine for setting the first line of the mortise from the edge, but how do you get the exact spacing between the first and second lines so that the mortise width exactly matches the tenon? Without relying on sighting down a ruler perfectly?

I have a couple of ideas but I'd like to see what other people do. Maybe I'm over-thinking it and should just use the ruler?

Also, if anyone has any advice in general on marking/measuring, besides what I'm asking about, I'd be happy if that were shared in this thread.

Thanks,

Robert

For that specific situation, I would simply mark one line and use the chisel for the mortise. If your mortise and tenon are set to width of your chisel, then you really only need one line for the mortise (unless you are using wood that is prone tearing along the grain, and even that isn't bad if the joint is hidden. If you are really worried, you could mark the first line, use your mortise chisel to make marks across the mortise every inch or so, and then connect them with a wide chisel like 1.5 inches.

There are really a lot of ways to skin a cat.