Varnish and Beeswax?

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

Pete,
My question was prompted by the false assumption that I had of the Maloof Oil/Wax finish. I thought it had varnish in it. It’s 50% BLO & Tung Oil and a handful of Beeswax.

I also have a cake of beeswax left over from some breadboards that I made a year ago.

I will give it a try. I have plenty of sample waste boards that I’ve used to get to where I’m at now. I’ll use my hide glue hot pot to melt the wax into the varnish and mineral spirits. (all outside, of course)

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Pat

[Scott Holmes]

Pete,
My question was prompted by the false assumption that I had of the Maloof Oil/Wax finish. I thought it had varnish in it. It’s 50% BLO & Tung Oil and a handful of Beeswax.

I also have a cake of beeswax left over from some breadboards that I made a year ago.

I will give it a try. I have plenty of sample waste boards that I’ve used to get to where I’m at now. I’ll use my hide glue hot pot to melt the wax into the varnish and mineral spirits. (all outside, of course)

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Pat

Pat, The M S will dissolve the wax; no heat needed, but why are you using varnish in the mix? You will end up with a mess. Also heating liquid varnish above 150 or so may render it useless. What are you wanting to accomplish?

[Pete McMahon]

Patrick,
You don't need to heat the mixture to combine it, the chemical action will take care of that. Scott's comment that it might make a mess is valid. It may get sloppy, might not. One way to find out. Proportions would be the important issue. The point I'm making is this is nothing new under the sun. Wax and a great variety of resins and drying oils have been used together for a long time. In different circles they still are.

I know people that guard their wax recipes like they would their children. That's why I asked what prompted your question. This site is dominated by Waterlox, Pratt and Lambert and a couple of water coatings. That is a microcosm in the world of finishing, restoration and conservation. If nothing else you shook the tree a little.

[Pete McMahon]

Scott,
Wax is one of those materials that is thought of only as a final polish. Although a totally different composition there's wax in shellac. I've used lacquers with wax in the formulation(not homemade but the companies formula)

Speaking of wax, it is considered that wax is the first French polish not shellac (see Roubo). Shellac French polishing, as we know it today, didn't really take hold until the early nineteenth century. Wax F.P. was fully in force in the 18th century. Look at the high style French marquetry furniture in that period. Of course there were fixed and essential oil varnishes employed at the time also, but they tended to break down where as the wax finish was chemically stable and not prone to the same failures. It did have it's own issues but was easily restored.

Finishing is a fascinating subject isn't it?

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

Pat, The M S will dissolve the wax; no heat needed, but why are you using varnish in the mix? You will end up with a mess. Also heating liquid varnish above 150 or so may render it useless. What are you wanting to accomplish?

Scott,
I’m trying to learn about finishing. There’s no better way than to ask questions. To someone like yourself, they may sound foolish, but to the novice, it’s something they need to know. It’s called basics.
I didn’t say that I was going to put it on my chair, only the scraps left over from my project.
I had no idea whether to heat the two products together or just mix them, and it had not been discussed, so I put it out there knowing that someone would correct me before I had proceeded with anything.
As for why I would do this - - - I’m retired and do not need to work wood for money, it’s just one of my hobbies.
Pat

[Leo Passant]

I completed this table recently and it was wax polished without varnishes or sealers. The polish is made up of hard vegetable wax, mineral waxes and some hard resin. It is moderately resistant to heat and alcohol (more so than shellac polish). A light buff with a soft duster makes it glow. I don't anticipate adding any more wax to the surface for a year or two.

JP

[Pete McMahon]

Leo,
Great job on that table. I see you were in the U.K. Finishes and finishing is seen in a very different light in Europe. On the commercial side the Italians really have a handle on finishing technology, they're way ahead of us in the U.S.

Many associate a good finish with one that is utterly rock hard. There are of course pro's and cons to each side of the discussion. Would I do that for a clients kitchen cabinets or dinning table, no. I would certainly suggest it for other less trafficked furniture. Often I'll bring a piece of my own furniture done in this fashion to the discussion. It's fun to see the reaction someone has to furniture that isn't finished in varnish or lacquer. I feel the underlying thought is "it can't be this easy". I'll also hear "Someone told me you can't do that" It always makes me smile. If you haven't done or seen a finish like this, I can understand the skepticism.

I'll say this again; is it for everything? NO. Is it a viable option for furniture and a great deal of other wooden objects? Without question yes.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> I'm loosely taking information from Sam Maloof.

Very loosely and mostly incorrectly.

Maloof used two separate finishes on his furniture. The first was an oil/varnish mixture containing equal parts of tung oil, varnish and mineral spirits. As a finishing coat, he then apply a mixture of beewax, tung oil and mineral spirits. He did not have a mixture that contained both varnish and bees wax as those two items would not mix properly.

[Randy Goodhew]

>>>> I'm loosely taking information from Sam Maloof.

Very loosely and mostly incorrectly.

Maloof used two separate finishes on his furniture. The first was an oil/varnish mixture containing equal parts of tung oil, varnish and mineral spirits. As a finishing coat, he then apply a mixture of beewax, tung oil and mineral spirits. He did not have a mixture that contained both varnish and bees wax as those two items would not mix properly.

Sam Maloof's finishing mixture was blended from equal parts Boiled Linseed Oil, Tung Oil and Semi-gloss Polyurethane Varnish.

His waxing mixture was made from equal parts Boiled Linseed Oil and Tung Oil, which was gently heated then wax was addes until the desired consistancy was acheived.

Rockler sells both of these mixtures pre-mixed. Their wax mixture used BLO, Tung Oil and a blend of Bees Wax and Carnauba Wax.

Know-say versus Hearsay. This has been well documented directly by Sam and is how I have actually done it.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Sam Maloof's finishing mixture was blended from equal parts Boiled Linseed Oil, Tung Oil and Semi-gloss Polyurethane Varnish.

Well....I don't know about that - but - I do know Polyurethane varnishes were first brought out in 1962/1963.
I'll leave it to someone that knows more about Sam Maloof to figure out how that fits into his time line.

[Randy Goodhew]

Trust but verify.

In Sam's own words:
"The first mixture is composed of equal parts urethane varnish (semigloss), raw tung oil, and boiled linseed oil. There is enough drier in the boiled linseed oil to activate the raw tung oil. This is applied to the raw, sanded wood three times at one-day intervals."

~~ Page 68, from the book titled Sam Maloof, Woodworker written by Sam Maloof.

I'm sure his formula/process was precided by a lifetime of expermentation.

Blessings.

[Bob Wingard]

Patrick,
You don't need to heat the mixture to combine it, the chemical action will take care of that.

Uhhh ... what chemical reaction would that be ??? Blending/mixing .. wax/varnish/mineral spirits is just that .. a blend or mixture ... not a compound where a chemical change has taken place. The addition of heat will lower the viscosity and melt the wax a bit more quickly if you are in a hurry, but the same effect would be had with a little patience. I personally would not advise the addition of wax to the blend, as I look at it as a contaminant ... if you read the label on almost any finish, you will find a caution to be sure the surface is dry and cleaned of any oils or waxes ... not much sense in doing that if you're going to slop some wax on right after a proper preparation. If you blend a varnish with a wax, each molecule retains it's individual identity, and as such, each wood molecule can absorb which ever molecule of finish it comes in contact with. What you are really doing in this application is waxing some areas of the surface and varnishing others at the molecular level, in a crapshoot manner ... not a good approach.

[Pete McMahon]

Bob,
I should have been more clear. A chemical change is not taking place. The thinning or if you prefer the blending action of the mineral spirits with wax and, let me be specific, an oil based varnish is taking place. The same thinner can be used for both the varnish and the wax and as you stated the wax will melt all the same with a little patience.

Whether or not you agree with the combination or consider it a contaminant is your opinion. This is nothing new, maybe just to you.

[Bob Wingard]

It's nothing new to me ... I simply reject the entire concept based on my previous argument.

The method has gained much of it's popularity because Sam Maloof used it ... and, to that point, Sam once openly boasted in an interview that he wanted a finish that looked nice, had a sensual quality to it, and was easy & foolproof. He admitted that the technique sacrificed much of it's durability to attain those qualities. He also stated that he developed it because he was not a good finisher, and that he considered himself to be too unwilling to take the time to finish using conventional methods. All things considered, he accomplished his goals ... the method is easy .. foolproof .. attractive .. has a nice feel to it .. and offers little protection. I can accomplish a very similar look with slightly more work, and a lot more durability by using ultra-thin coats of Waterlox. To each his own.

[Pete McMahon]

Bob,

I always thought the Maloof formula was a waste of time. I agree Waterlox is superior in every way to that. My experience in the field though has allowed me to work on a great variety of finishes some good some bad. I mentioned one in this thread in an old library; varnish with bees wax. Most of it was in great shape after almost 90 years and had an incredible look and feel, otherwise known as patina.

In the case of protection, not every object one comes into contact with has to withstand absolute abuse. When I need C.V, I'll use it. However there are many ways to apply a finish. Like you said to each his own.


For the sake of discussion: on your tag line you say Finishing: No Art?? Why not?