Ohishi Waterstones?

[David Weaver]

David Barnett suggested an ideal starter system for cheap last week. But it would . I don't know if there's anything to people demanding "more than nortons", but I wouldn't be surprised if you're right on (i'd have made the same demand if someone let me try a chosera or shapton 15k as a final step and then went to the norton 8k). It's like someone attributed the statement to leonard lee that people call lv and they claim this or that is out a thou when they're talking about flatness of the back of an iron, and they have no way of knowing. They know what they want, they just don't have any idea that they don't really know what they think they do. So you give people what they want regardless of whether or not it makes sense to someone who knows better. (we got rotary lapped backs out of that one, though, so who's to complain about that).

LN was selling the glasstones from shapton, weren't they? That awfully high priced set with the several hundred dollar diamond lapping plate that is almost optical flat but still wears out and needs to be replaced. For whatever reason, shapton pushed them above and beyond the stones that have three times as much abrasive media in them. Every shapton sold above board in the US goes through HMS enterprises (harrelson stanley). That cuts LN's take, first off, and second it means that if there is a supply issue (and from time to time, retailers have been just flat sold out of some shaptons in the US, just recently it was the 1k pro that was hard to find here), it's not like LN can go elsewhere. They just have to wait, screw around with back orders and listen to complaining customers. Harrelson has dropped the price of the pros on his website, but the glasstones in some cases have gotten even more nutty, in my opinion the whole price structure doesn't make any sense. But I'm glad the pros are cheaper now and still available. I got mine cheaply when they were expensive, but I had to hunt. shaptons claim that you couldn't use all of the abrasive in the pros was goofy, you can glue them to anything, even glass.

I'd rather LN had shapton pros, but whatever, i'm not in the market for the stones, anyway. I am a gentleman woodworker and a stone pig, but even I have my limits, and I think as far as stones go I've seen enough of them now. Famous last words.

[Tom Henderson2]

#3, Is soaking bad? Really? Bad enough to be avoided like the plague? I don't think so, and I think most folks who are convinced that 'no-soak' stones are essential and far better because of that have been reading too much and adopting the thoughts of others. There are very few stones that genuinely do not benefit from a soaking in some way, and all of them have that feature as a practical side effect/benefit, not a design point. If these stones do get some benefit from soaking, then they're not 'no-soak' at all...

The "no-soak" aspect is of interest to me because I don't have a sink near my woodworking area. No sink means lugging buckets of water around, and having a lot of mucky water to dispose of afterwards.

The only thing I found attractive about the Shaptons was the convenience; spritz & use, quick rubba-rubba with the flattener and good to go.

Even after a long day of frequent use at the LN handtool events, and the sharpening area was reasonably tidy. No buckets of water to deal with, very little mess.

Sometimes the real world intrudes on my woodworking and it can be a challenge to squeeze in an hour of woodworking hear or there. Being able to "just do it" when the opportunity arises without having to soak the stones would be nice.

Not a huge deal in and of itself, but a nice feature that I would benefit from having.

So that is the attraction to me; convenience, less mess, and the ability to focus more on the woodworking and less on the stones.

My $0.02

[Chris Griggs]

A video of Steve Branam using them. Hard to tell a lot about them from the video, but it may be of interest to the stoners.

[Stuart Tierney]

I could dissect the video, and the stones, but one word sums it up.

Meh.

X2...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

It's my opinion that a natural stone user will probably prefer a no-soak type of stone. The one thing a hard non-porous stone does that can be undesirable is load on tougher steels (not A2, tougher than that). If you use natural stones, you'll already be used to dealing with this. If a tough steel loads the surface, you just slurry the stone and the surface stays clear.

I think stu has told us that shaptons have literature stating that a 10 minute soak is appropriate with the stones, but it makes them feel softer and release grit faster. I don't really like that. I'd rather slurry the stone, my choice.

I am the original whiner about cold water, too. My shop is unheated, halfway underground and I have mild arthritis. That's why I whine so much about it.

I remember stiction from the shaptons when I first got them. You learn to work with the stones pretty quickly and never experience it again. Most natural waterstones that are truly hard are much harder to use. I didn't know if maybe the shapton stones were less inclined to cause stiction once they're used a little bit, but I loaned one to Chris and he said right away that he was having some stiction issues. So it's you/me that changes as a user, and not the stone.

I got a king 8k from stu a couple of months ago for nostaliga. When he mailed it, he said "they have pretty nice new flashy packaging, but the stone in side is the same....crap". He's right, ceratainly a perfectly capable stone, but completely inferior to the shapton 15k and SP 13k as a finish stone. They are a full step up the ladder, one where you can forego stropping even on your finest edges.

[David Weaver]

A video of Steve Branam using them. Hard to tell a lot about them from the video, but it may be of interest to the stoners.

This process is screaming for a grinder, but steve may have slowed it down for instructional purposes. I'm sorry to see that he got taken for a $180 ride with that diaflat (my opinion, of course - I purchased one of those and sent it to stu as part of our usual horse trading).

Separate and aside from Steve, If LN is savvy, they'll send a few of these stones to more vocal forum members, bloggers and magazine writers and all of the sudden, you'll see them being used and assume approval by association. When you are vocal and you have some exposure, you start getting things to "test", and not part of a back and forth sort of break-even kind of thing like stu and I do (sometimes it turns into a pissing contest, I think). It more of a "hey, we'll send you some tools and you get to keep them". Quite often they're the final iteration, so there is little purpose in asking someone to "test" the tools, it seems more to me like priming the pump. (I say separate and aside from this, because I have no reason to believe Steve is doing that, and I don't know anyone who has received LN stuff, they do a pretty good job of avoiding the forum culture). I've received other stuff, mostly stuff I've asked about, though.

There is a lot of traffic, especially on the power tool side of things, where bloggers claim to "review" tools, but they never have any reviews that lead you to believe any of the tools are unfit for use. And a lot of them are unclear about whether or not they received the tools for free, dodging the question by saying "no I don't get paid" and "look, I still work out of my garage", that kind of stuff. I thought there was a law passed not that long ago that required full disclosure of items received for free or receiving any other compensation when blogging about goods, but it appears to have had little effect. Any time I've commented on any of those blogs that the "reviews" sounded more like stealth ads, the folks running them have feigned offense. It's business. Even if it's someone driving their ego and wanting to be the point person for beginners, etc, it's business. Not all compensation is money, but the risk of bias is the same.

(i'm not sure why I went into that...short on the coffee this morning, though).

[Charlie Stanford]

This process is screaming for a grinder, but steve may have slowed it down for instructional purposes. I'm sorry to see that he got taken for a $180 ride with that diaflat (my opinion, of course - I purchased one of those and sent it to stu as part of our usual horse trading).

Separate and aside from Steve, If LN is savvy, they'll send a few of these stones to more vocal forum members, bloggers and magazine writers and all of the sudden, you'll see them being used and assume approval by association. When you are vocal and you have some exposure, you start getting things to "test", and not part of a back and forth sort of break-even kind of thing like stu and I do (sometimes it turns into a pissing contest, I think). It more of a "hey, we'll send you some tools and you get to keep them". Quite often they're the final iteration, so there is little purpose in asking someone to "test" the tools, it seems more to me like priming the pump. (I say separate and aside from this, because I have no reason to believe Steve is doing that, and I don't know anyone who has received LN stuff, they do a pretty good job of avoiding the forum culture). I've received other stuff, mostly stuff I've asked about, though.

There is a lot of traffic, especially on the power tool side of things, where bloggers claim to "review" tools, but they never have any reviews that lead you to believe any of the tools are unfit for use. And a lot of them are unclear about whether or not they received the tools for free, dodging the question by saying "no I don't get paid" and "look, I still work out of my garage", that kind of stuff. I thought there was a law passed not that long ago that required full disclosure of items received for free or receiving any other compensation when blogging about goods, but it appears to have had little effect. Any time I've commented on any of those blogs that the "reviews" sounded more like stealth ads, the folks running them have feigned offense. It's business. Even if it's someone driving their ego and wanting to be the point person for beginners, etc, it's business. Not all compensation is money, but the risk of bias is the same.

(i'm not sure why I went into that...short on the coffee this morning, though).

There seems to be a lot of brands and styles to keep up with. I guess this is a good thing.

And you're right - the internet is rife with this-thing-is better-than-sliced-bread "reviews." The pump indeed is being kept well primed. I like your phraseology.

Truth, if ever there was:

"Even if it's someone driving their ego and wanting to be the point person for beginners, etc, it's business. Not all compensation is money, but the risk of bias is the same."

[Chris Griggs]

This process is screaming for a grinder, but steve may have slowed it down for instructional purposes. I'm sorry to see that he got taken for a $180 ride with that diaflat (my opinion, of course - I purchased one of those and sent it to stu as part of our usual horse trading).

Separate and aside from Steve, If LN is savvy, they'll send a few of these stones to more vocal forum members, bloggers and magazine writers and all of the sudden, you'll see them being used and assume approval by association. When you are vocal and you have some exposure, you start getting things to "test", and not part of a back and forth sort of break-even kind of thing like stu and I do (sometimes it turns into a pissing contest, I think). It more of a "hey, we'll send you some tools and you get to keep them". Quite often they're the final iteration, so there is little purpose in asking someone to "test" the tools, it seems more to me like priming the pump.

Yeah that's how I felt (about the grinder), but you and I are so pro hollow grind, 2-stone method and the convex bevel folks seem super into the no grinder thing, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree with other folks about that. I also felt (and this is not intended as a slight towards Steve), that the edge of the 10k could have been better...you should be able to push cut paper at lower grits than that. Not that every edge I hone is perfect (mine are often sub par), and I'm sure doing a video demo adds difficulty. Again, not intended as a critisim of Steve, more of a general point of knowledge, that if one can't push cut paper off of a say a 4-6k stone, with nothing more than a few swipes of the palm, than they're probably not getting the most out of that stone...not that its a requirement, but useful info for those who want to get the most out of their stones.

[David Weaver]

The only time I've ever not disclosed something that I got for free or as part of trading is if I am badmouthing it relative to something I did pay for. I think that's pretty self explanatory, and it makes me look rude (I probably am).

There are a lot of things floating around out there, 3x what there would need to be, I guess. At least at this point most of it is good, and at least there is enough so that you can find people who *will* tell you what's in their wares, so you can avoid the ones who say "it's proprietary, best I've ever used...best, best, best, but I can't tell you why or do a relative comparison to anything else for you, I'm sure mine's better, besides it costs twice as much, so it must be, and it was developed for my specs and I'm an expert, and if the test said it wasn't better after I ran it, the test method would just be wrong, anyway".

[Augusto Orosco]

The "no-soak" aspect is of interest to me because I don't have a sink near my woodworking area. No sink means lugging buckets of water around, and having a lot of mucky water to dispose of afterwards.

The only thing I found attractive about the Shaptons was the convenience; spritz & use, quick rubba-rubba with the flattener and good to go.

Even after a long day of frequent use at the LN handtool events, and the sharpening area was reasonably tidy. No buckets of water to deal with, very little mess.

Sometimes the real world intrudes on my woodworking and it can be a challenge to squeeze in an hour of woodworking hear or there. Being able to "just do it" when the opportunity arises without having to soak the stones would be nice.

Not a huge deal in and of itself, but a nice feature that I would benefit from having.

So that is the attraction to me; convenience, less mess, and the ability to focus more on the woodworking and less on the stones.

My $0.02

That's pretty much how I feel about soaking, too. I don't mind the soaking itself and waiting a couple of minutes for the stones to absorb water. It is the inconvenience of having to lug water back and forth a flight of stairs and dispose of the gritty water. It's by no means a deal breaker, but a nice feature to have. With the prices David found on the Shaptons (contrary to my expensive finds at Amazon), I would be more inclined to get Shaptons over the Ohishi's, just because it's a known commodity of good quality. And David is also right about Stu's joint (I just checked): His is the cheapest source (that I can find) if you buy 2 or more from him. The break in price more than pays for the added shipping.

[RDave Evans]

These stones have been out for a few more years now, anyone have any opinions, good or bad, to add?

[Ray Bohn]

I have 1000, 3000, 8000. In my experience, the 8000 seems to dry out very quickly. I asked LN if it would be OK to soak this stone. I don't remember their exact reply, but it left the impression that anymore than a few minutes soak would not be recommended.

My experience with the 8000 may be due to the fact that I am a casual woodworker and the stone has ample time to fully dry out between uses.

[Patrick Chase]

I have 1000, 3000, 8000. In my experience, the 8000 seems to dry out very quickly. I asked LN if it would be OK to soak this stone. I don't remember their exact reply, but it left the impression that anymore than a few minutes soak would not be recommended.

My experience with the 8000 may be due to the fact that I am a casual woodworker and the stone has ample time to fully dry out between uses.

The Ohishis are resinoid, meaning that they consist of a plastic resin binder mixed with abrasive. The resin binder is (mostly) impermeable to water, so the stone never gets wet below the surface to begin with. They realistically can't be drying out on you. You can't soak more than a few minutes because prolonged water exposure softens/weakens the surface layer of the plastic resin. Shaptons are also resinoid and have the same limitation.

[Mike Walsh]

I've had the 1000, 6000, 10000 for a few years now and like them very much. The 10K dries out faster than the other 2 so requires a little extra "spritzing"

[Malcolm Schweizer]

A video of Steve Branam using them. Hard to tell a lot about them from the video, but it may be of interest to the stoners.

"Stoners..." I love it! I am absolutely stealing that.

As as for the video, he just proved why I say you need an intermediate stone between your medium (1k) and ultra fine (10k). That chisel needed a LOT more time on the 10k or other grits in-between. That said, the video did also show the importance of stropping. In the end it was sharp enough.

I saw the stones at the Handworks event and regretfully I didn't get to try them. Beware of overthink in the area of sharpening. If in the end you get a sharp edge that cuts well, then it was good enough; perhaps not ideal, or maybe it took too much time and/or effort, but it worked. <----- Hypocritical statement from a guy who obsesses on sharpening, by the way, but in the end if it worked it worked. Refer to the previous paragraph. I believe he could have gotten it a lot sharper, but in the end it worked. Perhaps it could have worked better, but it did the job well enough.

I have Chosera, Shapton, and Norton. All do the job. I really like the Shapton Glass for a value price and a great stone that does not need soaking. Usually I will keep the Choseras in the sharpening room by the sink for sharpening before and after use, and the Shaptons by the bench for touch-ups.