Authorship… Baffled by this…..

[Jerry Wright]

The point many may be missing is the difference between signature designs and original designs. A certain style may be associated with an artist simply because itis all they do. One who turns croquet balls all day, every day has a signature style. The sphere, no matter how cleverly decorated certainly isn't original.

[Mike Cruz]

David, here's my two cents. First of all, I completely understand your position. You worked hard to create something that is you. A little back slap from the other turner would have been nice...as well as appropriate. There is nothing that keeps anyone from turning exactly what someone else has turned...for themselves. But to pretty much duplicate what you do/did, and not say, "Hey this is my shot at doing a DD", was if nothing else, not nice. If I carved out a Rodin for my shelf...great. But to carve it out and place a picture in a carving forum of A Man With His Fist On His Jaw And Elbow On His Knee would be...well, wrong.

I see your point. I feel for you. Should the author have given you props? Yes. Do I understand your frustration? Yes. Should you get over it? I can't tell you what you should and shouldn't do. I'd like to say be the bigger man. But that might be do as I say, not as I do...because I'm not sure I could do it. I hope you follow your heart on this one. But at the same time, I'd hate to see you not posting here. Best of luck in whatever path you take on this...

[Dale Bright]

David,

I think I know the piece you are concerned about. I thought as soon as I saw it on this site and another, that is is "similar" to a DD piece. I do not think it is a copy or that it was meant to be. It was well done and I think stands on its own. I have seen many pieces that closely resemble the one in question, in fact so many that I have no idea who could have been the "originator" of that style.

You do have a 'signature style" but are you sure you are the originator? Perhaps you are but I have seen turnings similar to yours that were made before I saw any of yours. I am not trying to put down your work or your desire to have a recognized style. I think you do great work and it should be in the very best galleries. I wish I had the patience and skill to do the type of turnings you produce.

These discussions of "copying" and "original styles" come up on this site and others quite often. When I look at the photos of turnings on SMC and the other turning sites I read, I see very few pieces that I would say are an "original style" from the turner that posted it. I would estimate the true "origianals" to be less than 5%, but I do see many "signature styles".

David, please keep posting your work, I really enjoy seeing it, it inspires me.

Dale

[John Beaver]

David

Unfortunately this is an issue that artists have had to deal with for a long time. Look at the "art periods" in history; Renaissance, Impressionist, all the way back to Greek and Roman sculpture, when someone becomes successful with a style, people tend to copy it, and there isn't much we can do about it. In our business you can look at Ellsworth and the Moulthrops and every hollowform that has followed. People like Ellsworth and Jordan have decided to go ahead and teach their techniques with the opinion that they might as well capitalize on it, and hopefully it will expand the interest in wood as an art form. Although your work is definitely yours, you have certainly borrowed elements from others and just put them together in your own way.

I agree that it's frustrating, and I personally have struggled with it. When I debated about doing demos, Malcolm Tibbetts told me that someone could figure it out anyway so I might as well share it and take the money and credit for it. Malcolm has shared more then anyone I know, and as far as I know it hasn't hurt his sales. There are two makers who have copied my "wave" designs without me showing them. One gave me credit for it, the other did not. My response is to stay ahead of them with new designs and do it better then them.

If anything I would recommend that you promote it more so anyone who matters will know it's yours. Del Mano is not going to take the person who copied you, and hopefully the top galleries and collectors will recognize that also. As far as the public is concerned, (assuming that this guy sells, which is a big assumption) I don't think you can worry about that.

A favorite quote of mine is - "to be successful you either need to be the first or the best." I say you should strive to be both.

[Curt Fuller]

I remembered a post from a while back that I think answers this question of ownership or authorship pretty well. We're all influenced by many things but maybe the culprit in this discussion just had the idea hit them on the head.

Anyway, check out this really cool stem on the piece in this post.....http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ht=art+nouveau and then read the explanation of where the idea came from in reply #24.

[Sid Matheny]

When I read the first post here I had several thoughts on the subject but as I read each post it all seems to be covered. We all have get ideas when looking at others work. Sometime we think what we would do different. Sometimes we think that is just about perfect. Either way in the back of our minds we store that information and can use it as we work on projects of our own. Being an old redneck I'm not as good as some of the folks here and may never be but If someone copies something I do, more power to them.

Sid

[David DeCristoforo]

OK...OK I get it!!! Thanx to everyone for letting me vent without smacking me too hard on the back of the head for it!.

Curt, I had totally forgotten about that "piece". And the "Art Nouveau" influence was accurate. But let me tell you how I really got onto these stem "designs". I was actually making a "typical" stem with an onion at the bottom and a flare at the top. "Typical", right? So I had the whole thing pretty well done but I wanted to reduce the bottom of the onion a bit where it joined the base. I was cutting it down with a skew but I ended up going a bit too far and I cut it right off at the bottom of the onion. It fell on the floor and when I bent down to pick it up I was looking at upside down and I thought, hummm.... The only way I could use it was to drill the ends and pin additional bits to it and all of that quickly evolved into the ones I am making now. So in this case it did not fall out of the sky and hit me in the head, it fell down and hit me in the foot!

[Ken Hill]

Hard to go further then whats been posted, most of which I agree with. I can tell you that when a photographer walks and stands in my boot prints to copy my location I do smirk and shake my head, and then I realize there are only so many ways or options and if they need to copy me then they will have to beat me on quality. I compete with others for the dollar, is it right for them to, and I mean literally, stand in my boot prints to capture what I just did? Its not all that different then someone copying a form or shape etc, still doesnt make it right or ethical. In most cases where I have confronted the person they usually reply that I am the best in my field and they want to be like me and my work.....again, doesnt really make me feel all cheery inside. I have seen fist fights break out over this issue from people whom you would consider "refined" so I know i'm not alone in finding the imitation unnerving and potentially a loss of income. So with that said, in my humble opinion, you have every right to be tweaked and go kick a trash can......unfortunatley, until it directly affects you beyond your ego or pride, saying or doing much beyond a venting session will have you coming off looking worse then the offender.

Who ever penned the saying "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" indeed coined a conundrum.

[Terry Gerros]

If not mistaken, I believe Bob Stocksdale said it best.....the ancient Chinese copied my bowl designs.....

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Just popping in here for one second, and if you are interested or agree or not , this is the way I look at it, and it goes something like this.

I came in this world without any form or shape or whatever in my mind, but as I grew I looked and I saw, I listened and I heard, and I made what I had seen and liked, and combined my way.

And this counts for anyone of you, YOU ALL have been copying from what you have seen since YOU were born and in whatever shape or form you did combine these images doesn't really make any difference, and that is all IMO

So yes GET OVER IT, and do what YOU like to make, maybe someone else will like it to, and try to make something similar

[Jack Mincey]

I am having reservations on even posting on the thread, but here it goes. I really don't want to upset anyone but this is how I feel on the subject. It is almost imposable to turn much of anything that doesn't have some influence from some previous work out there. It is very hard for anyone not to copy some one else's work since there has been some many things created over our history. I look at pottery glass and ceramics to get forms into my mind. Heck even if we've never seen the form or shape before you can almost guarantee that it has been done before. I had my work in a gallery last year next to the Moultrop's work and found that a few of my pieces in the gallery had a very similar shape to their work even though I had never seen their work before. I had turned these forms after seeing some of David Ellswrth's forms. I wonder which of them did it first? Two of my forms sold so I guess some of the customers liked something about my bowls even if they where similar in shape. I would guess the price being a lot less might have had a little to do with it. I like your pieces very much but have always thought that they looked a little like work from this famous turner. .http://www.woodturner.org/resources/...4LibraAweb.jpg I would have to guess that Cindy Drozda designs were also born from seeing other work and putting her on personal touch on it. I would have to say that this is how most designs are created, by taking a previous design and trying to improve on it are make it more to our personal taste. With the huge amount of turning in our past it's very hard to lay claim to any shape or form as being ours alone. It is most important to make the workmanship set ones work apart from the others out there. I've taught for 29 years and have found it very satisfying to have my students copy designs that I came up with in the shop. Some of them are different from anything I've seen but similar so No, I can't say that I was the one that came up with it just hopefully improved on it, and that is about the best I can ever hope to claim.
Jack

[David DeCristoforo]

OK... I get it. I'm over it! Thanx again for all of the responses. This has been an enlightening discussion with many excellent points made. Good to hear from you again Leo...

[Mike Cruz]

I don't mean to speak for David, but I've noticed more than one person pointing out that all shapes and forms have been done by one person or another somewhere along the history of mankind. I don't think David disputes that one bit. I don't think David thinks he alone came up with the form. I don't think David thinks his piece is so unique that each one screams DD and that no one else is allowed to make them. I DO think David found it odd that someone made something strikingly similar (even down to the signature touches that he has added to the form that he is known for that HE added) without any recognition to David in the thread. I think David would/may have been flattered if the first sentence in the post went something like this: "I've been drooling over DD's turnings for years now, and I thought I'd try my hand at it." Maybe, at least, it would have been easier to swallow... David, please correct me if I'm wrong about any of those assumptions/observations.

[Roger Chandler]

What a can of worms!

[Don Alexander]

What a can of worms!

must be time to go fishing then