Table Saw Analysis Paralysis

[Barry Vabeach]

Rob, just wanted to add that I sold my Ryobi BT3000 to get the SS PCS in the shop ( I still miss the sliding table a little). My take is that for most users, the SS is in the same class as the PM and Uni. The Uni has a nicer changeover from dado to through cuts with the adjustable riving knife - the SS you have tool free insert removal, but you do have to change knives. The above table dust collection on the SS is amazing, I don't know how the Uni and PM compare. Download all 3 manuals, I would be stunned if either the Uni or PM have more fine tuning available. As most posts have conceded, all 3 will do the job ( so did my Ryobi). IMHO, the price premium for the blade brake on SS contractor is pretty steep - on the PCS v. PM v. Uni the premium is insignificant. I don't want to sound like an over the top SS owner, but the ruined blade risk doesn't sound like much to me. If I hit the blade on my PM, or Uni with the miter gauge, I am guessing it is time for a new blade anyway - the only extra cost is the brake cartridge. I bought 2 extra so I have already forgotten that expense. I agree that if wet wood caused the fire, that is a different issue - but the saw has a light that lets you check it first, and I use a crappy blade when I am cutting PT anyway, so its not like I am losing a WWII when I am cutting moist lumber. I can see a few potential downsides, but overall, it is a great saw.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

hmm. interesting. I looked at the new Uni side-by-side with the PCS, and I looked at the PM2000 (although admittedly not a lot). Comparing SS to the Uni, I felt they were very much in the same camp. I'd be curious to know if you've been able to run a PCS, or if you're just theorizing on the performance.

I think I would have been mostly happy with the new Uni....it's a heckuva machine. But if I got the Uni and ever had an accident, I am sure I would have regretted not getting the SS. I got the SS, and frankly cannot ever see regretting not getting the Uni.

[Van Huskey]

hmm. interesting. I looked at the new Uni side-by-side with the PCS, and I looked at the PM2000 (although admittedly not a lot). Comparing SS to the Uni, I felt they were very much in the same camp. I'd be curious to know if you've been able to run a PCS, or if you're just theorizing on the performance.

I think I would have been mostly happy with the new Uni....it's a heckuva machine. But if I got the Uni and ever had an accident, I am sure I would have regretted not getting the SS. I got the SS, and frankly cannot ever see regretting not getting the Uni.

I have used all three no question the basic accuracy and utility is right there the real issue is the long term heavy duty construction. Nothing most hobby shop owners would ever need to be concerned with. Consider FWW's comparison of cabinet saws, they picked the PM2000 to be the equal of the ICS awarding both best tool admittedly the PCS was not available then but just consider how much more of a light weight the PCS is over the ICS and the comparison seems to become more clear. The PCS is no ICS and the ICS is the equal or a slightly better than the PM and Delta. To see the difference in the PCS just look at the table and trunnions again nothing a hobbyist needs to really fret over but there are no free lunches and certainly none at SS. If I needed a cabinet saw to run daily for 30-40 years the PCS would not be on my list the ICS, Uni and PM66/2000/3000 would be, the PCS is built VERY well but not at an industrial standard, but is that really an issue for the OP?

[Paul Ryan]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

Most current reviews consider the PCS, new uni, general 350/650 and PM2000 to be in the same class. The table is a little smaller in depth but longer than the other saws. The trunions are a different design using steel and cast instead of just steel. Considered to be equally as strong. But it really doesn't matter. All 4 of the saws run 3k, the ICS will be close to 5k by the time you are done.




Rob,

Don't get yourself too caught up with wet wood. The only wood I have come across that sets the lights to flashing was dripping green treated. I had just brought it home from mendards it was green, green, green, and had been rained on. When I drove screws in it I got squirted in the face. I didn't cut it with the table saw but just put it to the blade. I wouldn't ever cut that with a 3k table saw. Regular green lumber will not even come close to setting off the brake. It is a lot more forgiving than you think. The really wet wood will dry out enough in a few days to cut. The only way I can see a piece of wood being wet enough in the center to set off the brake was if it was pulled out from the bottom of a lake, or if it was recently treated. Wood that is dried but has gotten surface wet. Once dried on the surface will cut with out the bypass needed.

I own a PCS saw and think it is an excellent saw. Dust collection maybe the best of any saws. A deeper table would be nice. But this saw adjusts easier than any other saw I have heard of. The inch in front depth you loose really isn't that big of a deal the more I think about it. To make any sized cross cuts you need a sled anyway. And who care about behind the blade you will have an out feed table so that is really irrelavant. Go to sawstop'ss head quarters and check one it. I think you will be sold. I dont think SS is going any where anytime soon. They are the #1 selling cabinet saw in the country and with this new model will grow even more. Oh and by the way it wont cut yours or anyone elses fingers off. I look at that part as a bonus to an excellent table saw. But it is the reason I bought it.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I think you hit the nail on the head - is it an issue for the OP? as for a saw that will run for 30-40 years.....I'll ask you 30 years from now

I would have to look more into how the trunions of the PCS are built, but to be honest I don't know it matters to me. I am definitely in the hobbyist camp, so I doubt I would ever 'push' any of the saws listed in this thread. I really wonder whether the trunion system on the ICS, needing to handle a 5hp or 7hp motor, by definition needs to be "beefier". In other words, will the 3HP motor on the PCS ever really tax the trunions? My gut feeling is no, but maybe only time will tell.

[Chip Lindley]

Michael, the OP needs a saw now that is in production! You malign the PM66 from your one experience with a 2002 model; a moot point in this thread. The PM66 ceased being produced in 2008; for over 40 years considered The 10" Cabinet Saw to reckon with. I must deduce that you got a lemon, considering all the good reports on the PM66 over at OWWM. (If new, did you consult PM Customer Service on your issues? No satisfaction?)

True, that the saw suffered toward the end, with some imported parts and cheap electricals. But, I truly love my 1998 PM66! Smoooth! I suppose I just made it under the wire! Evidently you did not. I am sorry.

To the OP: sounds like you have much 2" Brazilian cherry to rip. I suggest looking at the Grizzly G0605X 12" cabinet saw. 5/8" and 1" arbors. 5hp, with everything about the saw heavier and larger! And, just over $2K! not $3K!

[Keith Albertson]

Rob, I JUST ordered my SS PCS yesterday after doing all the comparisons you've done, searching for value. I'm confident I made the right choice. I specifically made my decision on value instead of safety, because I wanted to be sure I wasn't over reacting to the safety issue.

I'm an orthopaedic surgeon, and spend 3-4 mights a year working on "regular woodworking guys" who've had their "first accident in 20 years." None of these guys are sloppy woodworkers, but accidents happen. I started to feel a bit like a hypocrit using my Delta contractor's saw when I knew there was something out there that could prevent some of these accidents. But then again, I didn't want to go charging off blindly and spend good money for a safe but crappy saw.

I think I'm getting a great saw for a lot of money, with some added safety built in. I hope to never have to replace this saw, since I am only a home hobbyist, and I think the PCS will be sturdy enough for my needs. The new dust collection should be a bonus as well.

Good luck.

[Keith Albertson]

Just a quick addititonal note. I ordered my PCS from my local Woodcraft which is only 15 mins away. I will have to wait a few weeks. They are able to eliminate the shipping fees if they order a certain number of saws at once. That'l save me a few hundred bucks so I'm willing to wait. If you have a Woodcraft they may have a similar arrangement. Gives me time to re-design the shop for the 5th time!!!!

[Rod Sheridan]

I own a General 650, non riving knife model.

If I were you, I would purchase either the top Saw Stop model, or the General 650R (with riving knife).

The General is built in Canada, and does come with a Bies commercial fence. Incredible saw, smooth, accurate, powerful.

Powermatic equipment wasn't that popular in Canada, however the older Unisaw was, and it's inferior to the General, which is regarded by many as the standard in cabinet saws.

Now that I've told you why I like mine so much, I may as well tell you why it's been sold and replaced with a Hammer B3 Winner.

All the cabinet saws do only one task well, ripping.

You can't square sheet goods, and handling sheet goods is a royal pain unless you start adding on all sorts of homemade sleds, extension tables etc. Been there, done that, getting too old and somewhat smart enough to stop wrestling with sheet goods on a cabinet saw.

The sliding saws are a few generations ahead of the old cabinet saw.

They rip just as well or better than a cabinet saw (my new machine has a 12" blade/4" depth of cut).

They straight line rip rough material using the slider, saves lots of time and effort at the jointer.

They handle full size sheets if you buy the correct model, and can cross cut anywhere from about 50" on the small model I bought to over 100" on the larger machines.

They also dado with a sliding table, no more wrestling while trying to cut dadoes on 30" wide cabinet sides.

They are only as large as you need at the time, with quick remove outriggers, and clip on table extensions, the small machine instantly becomes a far larger machine than a cabinet saw, then converts back to a small machine for the more common tasks.

I really liked the General saw, I think it's the best of the conventional cabinet saws, I'm just not willing to live with the shortcomings any longer.

Happy hunting.

Regards, Rod.

[Paul Ryan]

I dont have any experience with the general saws. However the lastest eddition of woodworking journal rated the General 350/650 w/ riving knife low compared to the other saws. The writer of the review sited the smaller table top, poor dust control, small switches, and lack of extras. The sawstop PCS, Delta Uni, PM2000, and general international, all had much more favorable reviews for a $3000 saw.

[Rob Steffeck]

Once again, more great info. I appreciate it.

As far as my need for an industrial quality saw I can say this: I do not need industrial quality today, but in the relatively near future (~2 years) I expect this saw to become part of a business. Even as part of a business it would NOT be used continuously, but definitely more than a weekend warrior. Maybe my future needs could be met with a saw of slightly less quality and longevity, but the difference in price to step up to that level is not that great. That said, I still do have an upper price limit.

That Hammer machine is pretty sweet. I watched the video on their site. The combination spindle / saw with the sled would definitely make life easier. Unfortunately its out of my price range (I'm basing that on finding a used one for $4500). Watching the video also brought to mind one of the main reasons I'd want to go with a Uni-style American cabinet saw: accessories / aftermarket add-ons. Having the BT3000 for the past 15 years left me pretty jealous at times. I can't tell you how many times I'd go in to a woodworking store and see a new jig or accessory and have NO way of adapting it to my saw. I didn't even have standard mitre slots for the first few years. I don't want to get in that situation again. Also, with a more standard design, there are bound to be many other woodworkers who figured out a way to handle a specific problem.

I've found local dealers that have the Uni, SawStop PCS, and the General 650 on the floor so I'll be able to do an in-person comparison of each today. Thanks again.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rob ....for the record....the company headquarters for SS might be in OR but the saws are manufactured in either Taiwan or China...I forget which.

That being said.....the few times I've seen a SawStop..it looks like a great saw!

[johnny means]

As far as my need for an industrial quality saw I can say this: I do not need industrial quality today, but in the relatively near future (~2 years) I expect this saw to become part of a business. Even as part of a business it would NOT be used continuously, but definitely more than a weekend warrior. Maybe my future needs could be met with a saw of slightly less quality and longevity, but the difference in price to step up to that level is not that great. That said, I still do have an upper price limit.

If you have any aspirations of ever having employees who may work on your saw, the Sawstop is the only way to go. I have three employees and nothing gives me greater peace of mind than knowing that they won't be lopping off a thumb while ripping drawer faces or whatever.

Personally, I think every employer in the industry should be required to purchase saws with blade brakes from here on out. Not using any reasonably priced, proven safety meeasures is irresponsible when it comes to employers.

[Chet Kagel]

Keith, Thanks for your comments. I've been relying on my past history of having "only" one accident and thinking that I'm cautious enough to not have another. It was a pretty severe kickback incident but no loss of digits or limbs. In light of your post, I'm going to rethink whether my son and I should continue operating my existing table saw or would we be wiser to invest in a safer saw - the Saw Stop.

Rob, I JUST ordered my SS PCS yesterday after doing all the comparisons you've done, searching for value. I'm confident I made the right choice. I specifically made my decision on value instead of safety, because I wanted to be sure I wasn't over reacting to the safety issue.

I'm an orthopaedic surgeon, and spend 3-4 mights a year working on "regular woodworking guys" who've had their "first accident in 20 years." None of these guys are sloppy woodworkers, but accidents happen. I started to feel a bit like a hypocrit using my Delta contractor's saw when I knew there was something out there that could prevent some of these accidents. But then again, I didn't want to go charging off blindly and spend good money for a safe but crappy saw.

I think I'm getting a great saw for a lot of money, with some added safety built in. I hope to never have to replace this saw, since I am only a home hobbyist, and I think the PCS will be sturdy enough for my needs. The new dust collection should be a bonus as well.

Good luck.

[Van Huskey]

Personally, I think every employer in the industry should be required to purchase saws with blade brakes from here on out. Not using any reasonably priced, proven safety meeasures is irresponsible when it comes to employers.

Although I agree with the sentiment to some extent, the fact is most production shops could use something besides what SS has to offer. If/when SS produces a full sheet slider the point becomes more valid. If production would not be reduced by a standard "cabinet" saw then the ICS is wonderful in a production situation, but I don't think the PCS has the chops for that senario.