Table Saw Analysis Paralysis

[Rob Steffeck]

I'm in the market for a new cabinet saw. I have a few upcoming projects where my current saw just won't cut it, both literally and figuratively. My current table saw is far too underpowered to handle some 8/4 brazillian cherry I have to rip. The fence is also no where near precise enough to rip 13 foot lengths of WRC and AYC into 1/4" strips.

I spent the past few months reading SMC and other forums, articles, magazines, etc in trying to determine what I should get. For ~$3,000 range, as you'd expect, that lead me to PM2000, Unisaw, and the Sawstop PCS. Finally, two weeks ago, I decided to jump on a PM2000 3hp w/ lift before this year's PM price increase. Fast-forward to today and the saw is on backorder with no estimated date of availability according to the vendor. Word of advice...place you order via the phone and confirm the availability or else your money can get tied up for almost two weeks, which is the point I'm at now. They were quick to charge my card, but the customer service for the cancellation / refund is poor at best.

Since I need to get started on my projects and wasn't really tied to the PM2000 for anything other than saving a few hundred bucks, I'm revisiting the other two contenders: Unisaw vs. Sawstop PCS

Safety feature aside, the saws stack up to each other fairly well from what I've seen and read. I'm not really a fan of the blade brake and all the electronics on the SawStop. I'm sure it works well, but my fear is that it just adds complexity. I also worry about false triggering of the brake. Here is a scenario that I can easily envision happening. Lets say I have some relatively wet wood to cut. According to the Sawstop manual, you should do a conductivity test which entails making your first cut in bypass mode. In bypass mode, you will get some light indicators telling you if the material is conductive enough to engage the brake. If you get no lights, you are good to go in normal mode. What if the part of the wood I cut in my conductivity test was the driest part of my board? I could get a brake engagement on future cuts. Lets take the other side of that scenario. Lets say my conductivity test shows that the wood is too conductive and that cuts must be made in bypass mode. Bypass mode must be engaged EVERY time you start the motor. So if I have to make 10 different cuts to that board that require some fence adjustments or something where the saw has to be turned off, I have to remember to activate bypass mode each time. I can easily see myself forgetting to engage bypass mode when doing repetitive cuts.

I've read a lot pro-SawStop posts from people who say they'd re-buy their SawStop even if it didn't have the brake. Those are the people I'd like to hear from.

I like the Unisaw for its heritage and thats its made in the USA (for the most part). I like *some* of the new redesigned Unisaw features (adjustibility of the riving knife height and moving the blade further back on the saw). Like SawStop, their customer service gets great reviews. However, there does seem to be a bit more plastic on the new Unisaw. Ex. the motor access panel / cover.

SawStop is located in Tualatin, OR. I live in Tualatin so I'd be supporting a local business. Not to mention that I could possibly give Steve Gass a kick in the pants if I have any issues. Another concern I have about SawStop is the longevity of the company. If they ever do get consumed by WMH and the design changes, will I ever be caught without parts?

I like clear-cut answers. I don't have one in this case and its driving me crazy. From re-reading my post, I'm inclined to say it looks like I'm leaning in the Unisaw direction. Can anyone add any thoughts / comments / etc.

Thanks in advance - Rob

[Jim O'Dell]

Not going to help a whole lot, probably muddy the waters a little more. Have you considered the General 350R/650R? Made in Canada. Awesome machine. It would be in your range. Also, someone was mentioning about the PM2000 with a Baldor motor in the 2200.00 range the other day...can't remember if it was here or not. Seems that there was a limited number of them. It would have been here, Family Woodworking, or WoodNet. You might search each and see if it pops up. Jim.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Rob - you can't go wrong with any of your finalists. Go with your gut, or play rock-paper-scissors, or whatever. You will be fine however your decision turns out. You are overdriving your headlights, IMO.

[from a Unisaw owner + fan, PM owner +fan]

[michael case]

I just posted this on another thread started by someone thinking about the Sawstop cabinet saw: Let me help you make your decision based upon real life experience. Let me detail by comparison why I recommend the Sawstop. Lets put the safety feature aside and look at the Sawstop as a saw. Lets compare it head to head with the Powermatic 66. I've owned both the Powermatic 66 and the Industrial Sawstop and so I actually know what I’m talking about (well maybe about this anyway). The Powermatic 66 is often held up as the gold standard. Well then the Sawstop is the platinum standard. I purchased PM 66 back in 2002. The table flatness was on the 66 was not as good as the Sawstop. I went over the 66 with a Lee valley straight edge and its was off by a 1/32" corner to corner! Not only is the Sawstop table far more accurately machined it is also thirty inches wide. The 66 table is attached to the cabinet with three inboard bolts. You adjust it by loosening the bolts and shifting the table as best you can. Tighten it up, and of course it shifts. You get to loosen the bolts and try again and again. All table saws have this defect except the Sawstop. The Sawstop table is held in place by eight (yes 8!) outboard bolts and moves on a centered boss. The table has two set screws that allow you to dial it in to absolute zero. No more banging the table back and forth because the set screws hold the table in place while you tighten up the bolts. The wings on my 66 drooped and had to be laboriously shimmed. Again this is a defect common to many saws. The wings on the Sawstop were true and needed no shimming. The miter slots of the 66 were not truly parallel to each other. This is also a common defect on many saws. It causes any truly tight and accurately made crosscut sled to bind. The miter slots on the Sawstop are dead true to each other. The fence on the 66 moves under pressure on the end (see Fine Woodworking review) The Sawstop fence has been rated the most rigid. Poor quality was evident in the tilt mechanism on my 66. The rack with the gear teeth was very crudely cast varying wildly between 5/8" to 3/4" and was not machined except for the teeth. It had concave milling but it was out of line with the worm by almost 1/4". This meant that instead of the worm getting a full swipe contact with the gears it only caught the edge. All the wear was on one small point of the teeth, thus defeating the whole purpose of the concave machining. There was no fix. The rod that holds the gear runs through an iron block that has no adjustments. The tilt mechanism on the Sawstop is vastly superior to the 66. The rack is much, much, heavier than the 66 and its faithfully cast. Its precisely machined to a full 1 1/8" wide and wraps the larger worm dead center. As a result of the size and precision lavished on it, the tilt mechanism is as smooth as silk. The raising mechanism is unique and works with a power assist gas piston and a massive steel post. It is also very smooth. Most importantly, though I was never satisfied with the run out and crude cuts the 66 produced. Before I sold it I ripped a piece of white oak with a Freud glue line rip blade and saved it. I took the same piece and the same blade and ripped the other side of the piece with a Sawstop industrial. The finish of the cut produced by the Sawstop was far, far smoother than the 66. The 66 has no riving knife. The Sawstop has a beautiful riving knife. Its heavily chromed. Even the cam faces on the handle that locks the riving knife are heavily chromed. The hand cranks are heavily chromed. The 66, along with other saws, access the interior with plastic cowlings (the 66 ‘s cowling is unbelievable flimsy and crude) The Sawstop has a hinged steel cowling with quality latch, as well as a quality steel door on the right also with a quality latch. And of course there is the matter of manuals. The spiral binding, color photos, and logical grammatical English of the Sawstop manual has no peer. And lets not forget about customer service. Sawstop people (real people!) answer their phones starting at 6:00 am PST. This way they can answers calls from the east coast at 9:00 am EST. They have always answered for me by the third ring. Ask anyone about reaching Powermatic customer service! A half an hour on hold is standard. Overall the Sawstop is a superior saw because of its features as a saw. It is the most well and truly made saw I've seen. Oh! the Sawstop also a fantastic safety feature too.

[Van Huskey]

I posted about the PM2000 Limietd edition here copy of my post:


A few weeks ago I began chasing the elusive PM2000 50" CSA version some sites had up for 1999, but alas they were all gone so I continued to look and found what I think is about the best deal going currently:


equipmentsalesandservice.com has the PM2000 limited edition 50" with single phase Baldor motor for $2245 plus 95 shipping with residential liftgate. (it shows for more on the site but I was told by Neil when I ask I could "quote" this number) No free WMH shipping since it is not a drop ship they have them in stock, folks in Washington might pick up and save the shipping. It is a couple of hundred cheaper than I found it anywhere without the Baldor and although I would have taken the non-Baldor for $2k, I would be willing to spend and extra 150-200 for it so in the end I am quite happy. I have never ordered from them before and waited until it arrived to post, since the only thing worse than getting taken is bringing others along for the ride. If you order ask for Neil, he is really a nice guy and the "is that the BEST you can do" might help a little...


No affiliation just a guy happy he got an American motor as consolation for not getting his PM2K for $2K.



I think they still have a few in stock, don't think you can beat the price from what I saw searching the 2000 shipped deal for the CSA version was great but I missed it.

[scott spencer]

Rob - Welcome to SMC.

Some more mud in the water....have you checked out what Grizzly has in the same price range? I've always been a fan of the General 650...that one would definitely get a good look from me. Also, what is Jet's best offering in your price range?

[Van Huskey]

Let me add I think the SS is an excellent choice also, just wasn't for me. I made my choice without regard to money and if I had been forced to I would have paid SS money for a PM2000. BUT I would not have paid SS money for a new Uni. If the PM is out of the running I say the SS is the only choice at the price point. I would not hesitate to recommend a SS PCS to anyone.

[Greg Wittler]

I was also going to mention the General 350 too, I bought a Grizzly G0691 but was looking seriously at the General which they sell locally at a non-discount woodworking store for about $2600. Thought about the new Unisaw but that Made in the USA with US & Foreign parts got me to wondering, Especially at 3000+. Maybe some sheet metal screws were made in the USA? Is is a nice looking saw though.

Greg

[Mike Henderson]

You're probably going to have that saw for a very long time. If I were you, I'd get the SawStop because it's a good saw, and if you make a mistake when using it, it won't cut your finger off.

I plan to purchase a cabinet saw soon and it will definitely be the SS.

Mike

[Jim Andrew]

I had a craftsman before buying my unisaw about 5 years ago, and don't know how I ever got along without the uni. Been shopping for planers, and noticed Grizzly has their tablesaws on sale. Main thing IMO in to get a biesmeier style fence, and use a splitter. I got the shark guard and use it for over the top dust collection, and only take it off for narrow cuts etc. Use my router table to make grooves. Appears the riving knife takes the place of a splitter, never been around a saw with one. Far as cutting a finger off, use a push stick.

[Rob Steffeck]

Thanks for all the replies. Very good SawStop information too. I do plan to have this saw for a very long time so thats why I'm pulling my hair out over this. I had my current saw (BT3000) for over 15 years. But just like my clothes, I've outgrown it.

Have you considered the General 350R/650R? Made in Canada. Awesome machine.

You know, I initially ruled out the General early on in my search, but I can't for the life of me remember why. I think I was under the impression they were out of my price range.

It turns out there is a machinery dealer in Portland that has both the General 650 and the SawStop PCS on the floor. I'm going to head over there tomorrow to do a side by side comparison.

From what I've read on forums, General uses Baldor motors and their fence IS the Biesemeyer without the label. I assume this is all good info. Can anyone confirm that this is true with the new models? The General site doesn't tell me much.

You are overdriving your headlights, IMO.

Ha....my wife would agree with you. My motto is: If something can be done, it can be overdone.

Thanks again for all the info. SMC is an amazing resource.

[johnny means]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks Van! I did a search right before sending my post, but didn't find your info on any of the 3 forums I mentioned. I thought it was here, but wasn't sure.
Like Greg, I also bought the Grizzly G0691. If I had had a budget in the 3 G range, I would have looked seriously at the SS, but it would have been a tough call between it and the revised General with the riving knife. That said, I'm tickled pink (green?) with my Griz. It truly is worth more than the price tag on it, even at regular price! Though maybe not quite as prestigious as the other brands we've mentioned here. Jim.

[Van Huskey]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

I have to say this is one of the most honest and accurate assessment I have seen from a SS owner. I usually wouldn't bother making the argument but the Uni and PM2K are really ICS competition, FWW found the PM to be right there with the ICS (which I do think is a better saw). The PCS IS a compromise from the pure tool point of view (sacrilege here but is really is the truth), but not a large enough compromise for most hobbist to ever care about.

[Rob Steffeck]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

Excellent post. This is the first time I've seen someone mention that the ICS would be the one that is comparable to PM and Uni. Thats very good information.

Regarding "The Mistake", I'm not too worried about that one. I think I've developed very safe habits over the past 20 years with respect to the blade. My concern is that I've become so used to just aligning the fence and reaching to turn on the saw without even looking at the switch. That habit will be the one thats hard to break if I have to enable the bypass each time. But like you said, I may not have to ever use the bypass as much as I'm thinking I would.