Bob savage1 CNC start up advice

[Bob Savage]

Gary, thank you very much for the advise and suggestion. I really hadn't considered an evening/weekend apprenticeship, but that sounds like a very good idea.

I got the message several posts ago.

As did I regarding tooling and shop setup costs.

I only broke down my assessment of your situation and goals based on the posts that you have made and the reply's that others have given in return.

Understood.

You seen to be a bit light on direction and planning; yet you are considering purchasing a 20k machine to accomplish something, but you do not seem sure exactly what.

If this turned out to be nothing more than a fullfilling hobby making a small amount of expendible income while staying with my IT carreer, I would consider it a success. A $20k machine is not going to be a part of this. That much, I have decided.

In my opinion, that seems a recipe for failure.

Some years back, I decided it was time to release an album of my own. Despite the fact that I had the skillsets to write, produce and engineer the album, I also knew that there were many requirements that would cost in the thousands. While the thought of at the least, making back all the money I spent producing this album was a nice one, I also did the math determining the number of copies it would take to acheive this ROI. In the end, it really didn't matter. It was something I wanted, perhaps needed to do, and if I didn't make back a dime of the money I spent, it did not matter. To this day, I am still giving away the CD's...

The shop in my garage is another one of these "albums" for me. I am quite busy managing a successful career in IT, and while I would prefer to be in manufacturing (I do have a background in manufacturing and assembly, by the way), if this hobby never makes me a dime, as long as I'm having a good time, it's worth it.

A well thought plan would enhance your possibility for success. Make the plan then purchase the equipment, not the other way around.

I do not disagree with the first statement. My plan is to have fun. Even without machinery, I'm already accomplishing this by playing around with the Aspire demo. Today I was successful in creating a sign using a logo I designed for an electrician friend who's self employed, and even figured out how to deal with tool paths. The thought of experimenting with cheap materials and eventually giving him a nice sign for his business is an exciting one. I have far too many ideas to execute on all of them, but I'm also not quiting my job and starting a business without a plan. What I'm doing is spending more money than many would likely deem wise, on a hobby. If I find a niche or two and can make some money, all the better.

Everything I have written is only is my opinion.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best, and look forward to hearing of your success.

Understood, and again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am expressing my opinion as well.

Where I could fail is if I were to buy all this equipment, become frustrated trying to learn how to use it and quickly get bored... selling it all for a loss.

I have yet to be challenged with something where I have failed, and a spring chicken, I am not. This gives me a positive outlook on my future hobby.

Thanks again for the input, James. It may not seem like it, but I do appreciate it.

[Guy Mathews]

Bob,

I have been watching this thread from the beginning. I love the threads that are titled, "Which CNC machine is best", "What software should I use?" Yada, yada, yada. I try to stay clear of recommending any one machine or any one piece of software. For laser scanning I recommend, endorse and recieve compensation for Polhemus Fastscan if I happen to stear a client their way. As for the CNC machines, as I have replied in a previous thread,

These threads about "Which CNC machine should I get?" always seem to drift off the original question of "What do you want to do with it?" This happens because we all have our favorite machine or we have been doing it for a long time and we just figure everyone should know what we are talking about.

As far as I am concerned any machine you get "needs" to do 4 things.

1. Run code accurately.

2. Have enough power in the steppers and the spindle/router to run the code accurately.

3. Meet the size requirements for the work that you will be doing on it.

4. Be within your budget.

Anything after that is called "wants"

Anyway, I am digressing from my original intent. That is to say that I admire your attitude.

I too have taken many chances, some were and are sucessful, most were failures. I have a number of online endeavors going on that keep me busy, as well as a fulltime job programming and executing custom furniture parts on 3 different CNC machines. A ShopBot PRS Alpha with A axis, a CAMaster 510 ATC with recoil lathe, and a 10 spindle CNC Carving machine. Each uses its own Post Processor and require 3 different codes to run. I have been doing 4th axis programming from the beginning and find it incredibly easy even without my CAM software. I could just as easily generate the toolpaths I need for a custom wing on an arm chair using CUT 3D from Aspire, Parts Wizard from Shop Bot or Visual Mill from Mecsoft. The secret is not that you have 4th axis, the secret is that you know what to do with it when the time comes. This holds true for you as well. It does not matter if you have the best and the greatest that is out there. What is important is that you know what to do with them when you have it.

Jim M. made a great point. "...one of my early shops was a slot 10x20 in a storage rental unit and the back of a pickup truck, yes there was no cnc. but where there is a will there is a way."

I am not sure, but I am taking a guess that the fellow in the avatar is you. If it isn't, it still shows that you are not too concerned that people may think it's you. If it is, it does the aforementioned, and it also shows that you are quite willing to do anything to achieve an end result.

That being said, follow your dreams and your desires. If you make a mistake, it is yours to make. It will be much better then sitting around 20 years from now wondering if you should have.

If you search these the threads within CNC, you will find that your questions have been asked and answered many, many times. There are a small group of people that continously push the machines they are comfortable with. There is nothing wrong with that. It was what they like. There is a small group of people that continuously push certain software. Nothing wrong with that either.
No matter what you decide, be it a Chinese Machine or an AMERICAN BUILT MACHINE, you can count on one thing. That is the help of the small group of people that have their favorite machines and software, plus the many other wonderful people here at The Creek and at other forums like The Creek.

Keith said it best one day in another thread...

...SawMill Creek isn't typical of online forums. It's been more like a family struggling along, growing and adjusting as the road has been turning and twisting.

This was taken out of context from the original thread but it rings of truth. There are times it may seem like we are trying to rattle one another's cages, but rarely is that the case. We are a family. Family members make mistakes, and other family members will be there to help them.

Follow your dream Bob, there are no mistakes if you take one day at a time and be true to yourself and those around you. No mistakes, just obstacles.

Good luck on your decision and fell free to email me if you have any questions.

Guy

[Bob Savage]

Guy,

Thank you for the kind words, well wishes and your input/advice. I've been admiring, and showing my wife the work you post on the forum for a while now.

My avatar is actually Jim Carrey, from Ace Ventura - Pet Detective, but your observations/comments related to the picture are spot on.

Thanks again, and you can rest assured I'll be reaching out to you for tips and tricks.

[Gary Campbell]

Bob...

In this current economy, there are a lot of bargains out there on used equipment. You might look for a multi tool. Some of these have 3 or more tools on one base with wheels. Many brands are very robust pieces. A lot of work can be done with a small footprint.

Jim...

Thanks, but please be nice to an old guy, or I will tell everyone where you hide your case of SB blue spraypaint!

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Bob, I have been building custom cabinets for about 6 years now. I have every tool I need to build cabinets. I have shyed away from CNC until recently. I dont do enough work to justify it, I just want one. I can see it opening up new ways to make money. I look at every purchase as an investment in my business, and how quick I could sell it if the need arises. This is why I try buy high quality, well sought after equipment. You only cry once when you buy quality equipment.

I started my search for a CNC looking at the sub $10k machine. Now im up to the $20k to $25K like you are. To me and my business, this is the machine that will do the job I want for a long time. I will not buy a machine ( and settle for a lesser machine ) until I save the money to buy the machine I want the first time. Hopefull the beginning of next year.

Either way you go, I wish you the best of luck with your new venture.

[Joey Jarrard]

Whats up man, how's the salt life?

Bob,
There is some great info here. You are doing your homework so you will be just fine.

[Ed Lang]

I didn't see an answer to your question about dust collection... 1 micron is not small enough. Think cyclone type systems or vent outside. Your lungs are not something to play around with. Google Bill Pentz and do your homework on the dust collection end of things as well.

Best wishes!
e

[Bob Savage]

Hey Joey! Let's talk, soon.

I didn't see an answer to your question about dust collection... 1 micron is not small enough. Think cyclone type systems or vent outside. Your lungs are not something to play around with. Google Bill Pentz and do your homework on the dust collection end of things as well.

Best wishes!
e

Ed, thank you very much for the input! It looks like I have a lot of reading to do, but this looks promising:

http://www.wynnenv.com/9e300bl_conversion.htm

[Bob Savage]

you can count on one thing. That is the help of the small group of people that have their favorite machines and software, plus the many other wonderful people here at The Creek and at other forums like The Creek.

There are times it may seem like we are trying to rattle one another's cages, but rarely is that the case. We are a family. Family members make mistakes, and other family members will be there to help them.

It occured to me that I meant to comment on this, but forgot.

One of the things that I've found very encouraging is exactly what you've stated. There's something that I call "the journeyman complex," found many times within trade unions, where senior level craftsmen/mechanics withold "trade secrets" with the attitude that everybody should learn the "tricks of the trade" via hard knocks.

I've been fortunate to not have encountered this much throughout the various industries I've been in, but I've seen it quite a bit.

The comradery and willingness to help others that is extended by the experienced individuals on these forums is absolutely inspiring. Admittedly, I often become soured with the attitudes and self centered perspectives of many of the people I encounter on a day to day basis both in person and on the web. Hanging out here and observing (and hopefully participating in, eventually) the family, as you've stated, is great not only from the perspective of gaining knowledge, but from the human perspective.

[james mcgrew]

bob, i have told this story many times but when you said the work "family" quotin guy i decided to write it down.



i was to buy a new machine from josh at camaster november 17 20007, i went to the bank got a cashiers check for the whole thing, that night i found a 4x8 on ebay in bowling green kentucky called the fellow he agreed if i paid the buy it now price i could come get it. it was a camaster 408 built in 1999 and had windows 98 and dos technology for a controller and 1/2 step motors, the price was pretty good and even with new motors, drives and controller i would make out pretty good. it was a camaster and the quality was my last concern. i called josh and told hime what i was thinking of doing and if i did this could i pay him to retrofit it and where would we be with support. he said somthing i am sure his dad taught him " jim, i would love to sell you a new machine, but i would rather have you in the family" at that point i did not really under stand how far that would go but i was ok with it. within a month (machine worked well right away) bill had come to columbia on his way to deliver a machine to wilmington. him and joey spent an entire day in my shop (only took an hour to change the controller) we made friends that day, they enjoyed teaching me as much as i enjoyed learning. it was obvious they were happy with there place in this. a week later i got an opportunity to cut signs for an apartment complex out of hdu foam, (did not have a clue what that was) called bill, (his background in this is signs not cabinetry) he wrote the initial files for me and we emailed them back and forth for a week untill i got proficient enough on my own. i made enough money in those first few weeks to pay for that machine so i ordered another initially a tool changer (now that scared me!!) but bill talked about wanting to develop the x3 three head machine so we changed course and went that route. three head technology was not new it had just never been affordable and well built at this size machine. i trusted bill with this, as time went on joey, paul and frank have continued to grow camaster while maintaining all of the designs and neccessary improvements to the machine, i have several really good pieces of equipment in my shop, one of them is the williams and hussy moulder developed a long time ago and still the same workhorse as it was originally designed. i feel the same way about my cnc from bill. recently i sold that first machine i miss it and now that i am adding the lathe i do not need the smalller one i am having built so i see me ordering another next week to replace the 408, i will say this once you have used a multihead ot atc machine a single just wont do!!

threads like this one help for a lot reasons, it helps the original poster and creates the data base for those yet to come as far as competition well "one can be first or one can be last"!!!

jim

[Bob Savage]

Jim, you're KILLING ME!

I need to bring the cost down, not up, so don't get me drooling over a tool changer. I'm already in conflict now, because this morning my wife said "if your new job pays more, just get the 'big' machine." Urgh...

I'm planning on speaking with Joey soon. I want to be part of the family.

[Guy Mathews]

"i will say this once you have used a multihead ot atc machine a single just wont do!!"

Jim, you hit that one right on the head!!!!!!!!

I hate changing bits on my SB!!!!!!! Still love the machine, just hate changing the bits! My ATC has spoiled me.

I even have the T 0 command in my post processor to put the bit away just so I do not have to do it at the end of the day!!!


Guy

[james mcgrew]

you can see my older machine (now sold) in the back ground.

jim

[Gary Campbell]

Bob...
Ed makes a very good point concerning the dust collection.

Joey!...

Good man! Nice to hear from you. Record lows here. (60)

[Bob Savage]

Bob...
Ed makes a very good point concerning the dust collection.

Absolutely, and as somebody with Asthma, I am not taking this lightly. Lots more reading to do...