Has anyone ordered Crucible's new dividers? I must admit I got a severe case of sticker shock when I saw the cost - $187 (for just one pair), including domestic shipping.
I'll bet they're darn nice tools though.
Thoughts?
Fred
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Has anyone ordered Crucible's new dividers? I must admit I got a severe case of sticker shock when I saw the cost - $187 (for just one pair), including domestic shipping.
I'll bet they're darn nice tools though.
Thoughts?
Fred
Fred,
I assume you mean by one pair a single divider, if so, yep a little pricey. If for a pair of dividers not so much. A pair of Starrett 6" are around $160 USD at WoodCraft.
ken
Yeah Ken, the way I read their website it's $187 for a single tool. I was hoping maybe it was for two - then I coulda talked myself into it. But I just couldnt get there for a single tool.
But I'd love to hear from folks who have them. They look like they'll feel good in your hand and work beautifully.
Fred
They are competing with a large stock of vintage tools, some needing a little fettling but few selling above $10. I have a large drawer full of dividers of a great variety of sizes and styles. I'm quite sure that I have less than $187 invested in the lot.
That said, they look like nice tools. I wish them luck.
I favor dividers with a spring loaded quadrant, easy to set to a fine tolerance and holds the setting well. I would guess this design is harder to set.
I think you are right. One pair means just one unit, as in a pair of glasses.
Now some people complain about the new Combo Plane being pricey at $399!
Simon
Increasingly, tools that fall into the boutique category need to be priced high to attract attention and spending. Yes, that pair is pricey but I don't think sales is a big issue at the beginning. As long as they don't keep making batches and batches of dividers when sales slows down and disappears, their inventory costs should not be high.
Simon
I have to say that they look quite elegant for a pair of dividers, a pair meaning two legs like a pair of jeans. 187$ buys lots of jeans or other stuff to put in your kit.
Recently I purchased 4 pair 2 strait leg one each inside and outside all at a buck each, they all do their job. But then again I'm on the thrifty side.
Rick
Attachment 366599
That's an absurd price for a set of dividers. You can get name brand dividers on eBay for a LOT less than that.
And one thing I don't like about those expensive ones - they don't have a "spinner" at the top. When you use dividers, you're often stepping off spaces (such as for dovetails) and a spinner makes it a lot easier.
If you don't want a spinner, buy some inside calipers and grind the legs to a point. You'll have a set of dividers without a spinner.
Mike
In the details, the word architect tells the whole story. Architects don't do anything cheaply. Looks is everything.:D
I have used them but do not own them. They are very well made and true works of art. As for the price- well, that's why I don't own one. I don't think their target market are people that consider price over quality- to an extreme.
Speaking of no spinner, got these at the Millers Falls factory store in Greenfield MA summer of 74. They came with 2 strait legs and a bent one so you could turn it in or out and effectively use it for same. Not having a spinner is it's biggest draw back but the fact that it will hold a pencil negates that 100%.
Rick
Attachment 366624
There are many old dividers to be found in flea markets for a few dollars each. But,the old ones are usually at least brown all over,or rustier. Personally,I have always used the more modern type as mentioned,with the spinner on top,and screw adjustable legs.
I have a divider similar to the MF just above,except it is a Starrett. Bright finished,and with extra legs. Made to hold a pencil in one leg if desired. Mine never got rusty. I was in Delaware at the time,and found them in a pawn shop for $3.00.
I was a Quartermaster in the Navy. We were involved with navigation. Those look like navigator dividers. I have a similar pair here by my computer.
I've got a hand made pair that I think are unusual. No adjustment arc or spinner,taper is long and graceful. In playing with them I saw that they would be alternately loose and tight enough to use. When adjusting them you can turn the hinge part with thumb and forefinger while adjusting and make them tight. Opinions vary as to whether that is an intentional feature
for quick adjustment or irritating flaw. Joint looks like cam. Would love to post pic, and a friend here gratiously PMd good instructions. But I have not practiced, my wife might do it.
I wondered about the price of the crucible tools too. They look amazingly made, and I'm sure they're a treat to use (they also look super cool), but at that price I just can't see myself buying a pair, and I'm terrible with my money when it comes to tools. I just can't see myself getting an extra $150 worth of divider from one.
I have a couple of the french dividers sold by Lee Valley and they are excellent and look very good (the brass/black combo is always attractive). I also have some vintage ones that are great too.
For example, here is a link to an Osborne 6 inch divider that I feel is a superior design for hair splitting control over dimensions.
https://www.amazon.com/C-S-Osborne-1...HWWEV2N8P8CSF1
Once again, I blame you guys for my lack of money. This thread aroused my curiosity and I searched eBay, found these, and bought them. They may get used for navigation instead of woodworking. I will decide once I get them in hand.
By the way, I know you guys like the "spinner" but I walk the dividers with the legs, which gives more control, but it's pretty much a non-issue either way. I have plenty of both type.
When I need to draw a circle or use dividers I use either my drafting set with the thumbscrew adjustment or my navigation dividers.
I have to admit that I bought a pair - and I don't have a better-made tool in my entire shop. There are very few "perfect" tools in this world, and these come darned close. The fit and finish is superb, the heft is impressive, the action is smooth and reliable. I keep them at my desk where I do most of my layouts and planning. They aren't far from my hands any time I'm in the shop.
Plus, it is kind of cool buying tools from folks you know personally - like Dave Jeske at Blue Spruce Tools, Chris Kuehn at Sterling Toolworks and Mark Harrell at Bad Axe Toolworks. I know I'm paying these artisans for their hard work, blood, sweat, and tears. That's something you can't often say about buying a pair of cheap used dividers off of eBay.
Good deal Ted. Glad you're enjoying them!
Spending is seldom rationalized. In other words, what is rational to you may be irrational to me and vice versa. As long as it is not public money, we don't need to justify our purchase decisions. If you think your $150 was well spent on a nice dovetail saw, ask your neighbor who cuts his 2x4 with a $30 saw and he may think you are nuts.
Whether it is dividers or a plane, we pay what we think it is worth.
Simon
In line with Ted here. I bought them as my souvenir from Handworks, as a way to support some of the responsible parties. I already have all the dividers, compasses and calipers I need. They are all quite old, but excellent. The Crucible dividers are different in that they are not finished when you take delivery. It is the owner's responsibility to fettle them. They are not sharp, not close. It is your job to bring the tips to a point. Also, they are not perfectly tuned at the hinge. You need to at the very least lubricate and break them in. I did a bit of fettling on the faces at the elbow. Since the "rivet" is actually a bolt, you can creep up on exactly the action you want. There was also one very small bit of material I removed to make them mate together perfectly when closed. The milling removed an inside corner to a very small radius where the mating part had a sharp corner - which was rounded to match. So... not only are they pricey, but they also arrive with "some assembly required". Definitely not for everyone. But I am very pleased.
Bill, I commend you for supporting small manufacturing - I am no stranger to paying a bit extra to support a local business. That said, you are a lot kinder than I am...if I bought a $187 pair of dividers, I would expect them to be perfectly finished, sharpened and fettled, and no less.
The blog on Crucible Tools' site explains in some detail why their dividers cost what they do, and why they leave some fine tuning up to the user. Obviously, they are not going to be for everyone, and the founders of Crucible make that very clear in their blog. It's an interesting read even if you have absolutely zero interest in spending that much on dividers.
Like any business that's just starting out, their odds of success are long. But at least they are trying to do something that results in jobs being created locally.
Not a subscriber or follower of their blog, I was surprised to hear that such an expensive tool would not be ready out of the box for its new owner.
If such information is also made known on the ordering page (for the benefit of those who don't read blogs), then I see no problem in their business model. Not every tool comes fully assembled or ready to use out of the box; for most planes, you cannot use them new until you hone the blades.
As for supporting artisans, we all have different stands on that. Are they businesspersons or artisans? What about companies that are employers of artisans? Are we supporting their businesses or the artisans they employ when we buy their products? Or are we supporting the industry as a whole? The local economy? Only each of us can decide what we are supporting and no right or wrong answers are out there. Same thing about buying only goods made in certain places vs imported products.
Simon
It's too expensive for them to sharpen the tips in their shop or even clock the screw? That explains everything about why these are so expensive. That and the fact they are basically a hobby / boutique manufacturer. I'd rather spend the money on something more essential than a pair of seldom used dividers. By the way, is anyone listing for the bamboo french curves or the similarly expensive holdfast.
It really helps very little if the business is not run to be successful. I suppose they will find a few people willing to pay their prices, but they might be more successful if they made products that many people want and can afford.
Mike
[As an example, if you Google search on "holdfast tool" you'll find many for under $50, some for way under $50. Here's a place that hand makes them and sells two for $38 ($19 a piece). Now, maybe someone wants a super finished holdfast, or wants an expensive one to brag about, but the majority of people will attempt to maximize their "gain" for the minimum price.
I doubt if there are enough people who want a set of super premium dividers to make a successful business.]
Simon, I don't disagree with what you're saying here. But I would like to point out that for the woodworking tool market, once we get into planes for example, one can purchase a $250 Veritas plane that has already been sharpened, finished and fettled to perfection - a plane is relatively complex compared to dividers, and at around $190, I would think they could afford to finish the tool for the user. Just my two cents - initially I though Crucible dividers, like any other high priced tool come perfectly finished, and in my mind could see why someone might want to pay that much for them....now I'm not so sure.
I did just read their blog, and it doesn't sound very convincing. It would be like Lie Nielsen shipping a blade ground at close to 90 degrees and saying different angles work for different people, so do what you want with it.
The Crucibles are too rich for my blood. The doghouse in the yard isn't big enough for both me and my mutt. But I don't begrudge anyone that wants to buy them.
Decades from now the grandkids will look at it and wonder why grandpa liked them so much. Then someone else will get to pick them up for a few bucks at a garage sale, or whatever they have 50-60 years from now.
The wing type Pexto dividers I use were my grandfathers and came to me brown all over. I've left them that way.
-Tom
As I see it, the principals are pursuing a "following" strategy. That is they create a following under the LAP flagship and the followers will buy tools associated with the LAP. They dont need to appeal to the general consumers most of whom cant afford or wont be willing to pay for a boutique item. Look, it is time and money to create and maintain the following. It costs money to write blogs, make responses, etc. As always, some will succeed and some will fail in a flash. The business world has always been like that.
This isnt a new business strategy but has been made more potent and effective because of the invention of social media. If the social media were shut down tomorrow, most businesses modeled after this strategy would fold in no time because they could not reach their targeted buyers or maintain the following.
Not too long ago on Paul Sellers' site, people talked about Sellers endorsing (like sports stars) products or creating his own brand of products. No other online teachers have a following close to Sellers these days (even though he had a late start) and imagine his success if he launched a tool. There are no signs he will but if he did, he could sell more snake oil as a finishing product than anyone could dream about. Oil made in the uk too, not imported.
The loyal followers feel being part of the family and feel the obligations to render their support. Social media have totally changed a lot of things including businesses.
Simon
Maybe. I really doubt if the principles of economics have been suspended because of social media. In fashion, we see people buy a "name" in order to show that they are hip or rich enough to buy it, but I kind of doubt if that strategy applies to tools.
And even if it did, we see the results when the hip people move to a new "name" fashion.
Overall, the marketplace is based on the idea that the buyer feels s/he is getting the best value for their money. For fashion items, that feeling is very transient.
Mike
IMO, whether it's ok, foolish or whatever to sell the Crucible dividers at that price is ultimately up to the people who buy 'em. Or don't. It's too rich for my blood, but so are Woodpeckers, Bridge City and any other number of toolmakers.
Putting it in perspective though, there are a TON of people on this board (including me) who salivate at every new offering from LV. Yet our friend Steve Newman regularly reminds us that he's doing good work with old tools that he bought cheaply and rehabbed. To Steve, it might seem just as foolish to pay $400 for LV's new combo plane as it does to me to pay $200 for dividers.
Likewise, for me, a $5000 Euro slider is not needed. But a WHOLE LOT of folks on SMC have them and just love them. Ditto with Festool. And while I'm certain I'd love them too, it's not something I personally need/want.
So I guess that's a long winded way to say that I agree it's up to the buyer. :D
Fred
Frederick, you make a good point, basically YMMV. But what I'd like to point out is that for all of your examples, yes, they are the expensive options, and do the same work cheaper tools do, BUT the difference is that their manufacturers all hold themselves to a very high standard, providing the customer with a tool that works perfectly out of the box/better than their competitors/to a higher degree of accuracy or precision.
That being said, different strokes for different folks, and I admit, those dividers look very cool, for what it's worth.
Simon, you make an excellent point. Mike, I think you're wrong. As Simon has pointed out, the business model they have could work very well. Schwarz is a hardworking person and has captured the imagination of many. I don't feel the need to purchase the dividers, but I'm sure plenty of people well. The target market seems to be those who have the money spare, perhaps to have as a special gift or for those who will prioritise them as a purchase. For small makers, this is the only market.
I just think it is worth pointing out, in terms of practical application the crucible dividers will not offer any improvement over any other appropriate quality divider. Thankfully, people are free to choose how they spend their money.
My eBay find arrived yesterday. They are gorgeous, very tight, and extremely sharp! (Gloat)