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I'm about out of the current bottles I have, which are/were LMM-6060. Before I buy another bottle, is this the best version for marking Stainless and the most economical? I remember reading posts about the new formulations are not as good as the old and so on, and I'm not sure what variation of Cermark that was... but I can't seem to find those posts now and wanted some input before I order a new batch.
Thanks!
All I've ever used in 15 years is LMM-6000. I'm about ready to buy my 6th 500gm bottle so far this year, and I'll probably need a 7th bottle before the year's done, I laser etch that much stainless- and cowbells ;)
Tim swears by LMM-14, one of these days I need to try it, but as it is I know exactly what to expect with the 6000. If anything, I'm most interested in the 14's ability to NOT darken brass, which is the only headache I have with the 6000.
I know zilch about 6060...
It appears 6060 is a newer product and according to the website a bit more flexible on different materials. I'll probably buy the 6000 as it appears to be quite a bit cheaper, and I mainly do stainless. Next question, where is the best bargain for it? I currently purchase from Johnson Plastics (what used to be Laserbits) and it looks like a 250 gram bottle is $130.
I use Lmm-14, due to Tim's reviews, but I'm a small time user. Last I bought, I searched about 4-5 suppliers and they were all within a dollar.
http://cermarksales.us15.list-manage...c&e=ecbc32640b
Bought from the above guys and in Oct they've got free shipping. Saves you $16...... Use code oct17
Laserbits's website, my Firefox purposely won't open it, 'configured improperly', could be because Johnson owns it and no one's watching it?
Engravers network only sells cans on their website (best I can tell anyway, their site sucks to navigate), but on Ebay they sell a 1000gm bottle for $499.95+$11.35 ship, $511.30 all in.... FAIL
I tried John's link, they don't sell a 500gm bottle, only a 250 for $130, even with free shipping it's more than the $127.82 per 250gm via the 1000gm bottle--
Ergo- Back to Laserbits, but via ebay, their 500gm bottle is $235.95+$12.93 ship, $248.88 all in-- and that's THEE cheapest by the gram LMM-6000 I've ever found..
Laserbits is $235.95 for the 500 gram bottle... and delivery is free for me as they aren't but a few miles from my house. Will have to pay tax though... so I'll see if the Cermark Sales with free shipping works out cheaper... probably a wash, and I prefer to support local if I can. I'll probably buy the 250 gram bottle though and pay a couple bucks extra.... unless I get a lot more large marking, the stuff lasts a long time for me.
Is "Lamb Tool Works" an actual business and, if so, do you have an AZ vendor's license? You can register with them as a business and not pay sales tax. I've always purchased from the Ohio location without paying sales tax (because I'd made the arrangements with LB years ago) but they were out of what I wanted a couple of weeks ago and set up the order to ship from AZ instead. Despite being registered with the Ohio office as tax exempt, the AZ folks charged me sales tax. I had to send them a copy of my VL and they refunded the tax portion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lamb
Yes, I could do that, but then I have to file and pay taxes based on purchases when they become sales, more hassle than it is worth to just pay the occasional sales tax when I purchase. You aren't going to get away from paying them somehow.
I use quite a bit of lm6000 but today I'm ordering the new stuff. They're so much cheaper so I'm going to give them a working try. I buy 250 gram jars.
https://enduramark.com/
First. I want to say... Kev... share some of that Cermark business. lol The gross profit margin on Cermark work is fantastic.
I do like LMM-14 & LMM-6063. Yea, I know 6063 "is going away", but I love using it & have stocked up. I like it just a hair more than 14. In the past I have equated these two, but they are very different. Things to know about these: Neither is as dark as 6000, BUT close enough in my book, given their advantages. Neither of these are as sensitive as 6000 is to being very thin without runs - 14 & 6063 doesn't care. Another point is 14 is more of a dust when dried, not near as stable as 6000. So, if using 14, use right away after drying & DON'T touch it. With 6063, it also "should" be used shortly after drying, because it "can" leave a shadow on the piece if left on too long. Both 14 & 6063 work great on shiny metals like chrome.
Having endorsed these two... I did just buy a new jar of 6000 (along with another of 6063). There are occasion that I do need that Blacker marking. Since I don't care for the temperament of 6000, I'll charge a little more for that work. Of course the highest premium is paid when using the Fiber laser. Extremely slow/time consuming, but man, what a great Marking.
I had kind of forgotten about Enduramark... it is quite a bit cheaper. I take it you have played with it enough to be comfortable that it is as dark and as durable as Cermark? What about power levels, same as Cermark?
I figure I get more income per $1 worth of Cermark than per $1 worth or Rowmark, it's worth the money. As for "neither is as dark as 6000", that just sealed the deal for me, as 'dark' marking is sort of my 'signature'. And it's taken me years to convince many of my now-regular SS customers that Cermark etching is indeed "permanent". One of my best customers used to supply me with pre-stamped and color filled SS ID plates, with logo, address etc, to which I added the variable info via Cermark. These plates are installed on the outsides of ANFO mining trucks used for oil exploration in the middle of nowhere. During some on-site inspections, they found that the sandstorms and other general bad conditions had completely obliterated the stamped and colored portion of the ID plates, but the Cermark, while worn down, was still perfectly readable. From then on they had me fully Cermark their ID plates, and I did the remainder or their stamped plate stock on the BACK SIDE. Stock ran out about 2 years ago and I've been supplying them from scratch ever since. And word gets around... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Bateson
The known (to me at least) durability of 6000 is another reason I hesitate to change. I've been going to buy a bottle of Enduramark, but after the sample test results I got, I know that I'll have to spray it to get results I'll find acceptable, but I did a lot of spraying before I took to brushing. I do like how black it gets, even my Triumph got it black... however, I have NO idea of how it will withstand the elements, and the last thing I need is my ski lift and dynamite truck customers calling me 6 months after the fact that their etching is fading or wearing off...
Kev
The reason I'm ordering Enduromark today is that he thickened the formula so it can be thinned with DNA and applied with a sponge brush.
Well, I was out of the Cermark and had to re-do a address on the back of one of my bracelets. The Cermark was on there first, had to take a air burr gun with a unitized 3M Scotchbrite wheel and grind/polish for quite a while to remove the Cermark... interesting that even once the black was gone, there is some indentation or disturbance of the stainless under the mark, it took quite a bit more polish work to remove.
I then tried to brush on some non-diluted Enduramark... no good. So got the airbrush out and diluted and sprayed the part. Proceeded to mark and found that the text was too close to the top and had to buff that off and start again. While I think the black mark from the Enduramark will be suitable in toughness, it didn't take near as much work to remove it completely. Re-sprayed and marked again and got the job complete.
I think I'll stay with the LMM-6000 even though it's slightly more expensive. The mark on the top area is the Enduramark, the lower section is Cermark. Same power, same speed. Text is only 6 point, so pretty darn small.
Attachment 369907
Don't hold me to this, but I'll say I've always assumed the CER in CERmark was in reference to CERAMIC, because (a) back when I first started using it my rep told me HE believed it had ceramic elements in it, and (b) the original version of Cermark very much resembles ceramic slip in color and consistency, and it even hardens like greenware. I've watched our kiln fire many a ceramic knick-knack we poured into molds ourselves, changing the fragile hardened slip into a rock-hard ceramic elephants, parrots and coffee cups ;)
-- SO, I've always believed Cermark hit with a laser does pretty much the same thing, only the firing is done instantaneously via intense laser heat, which actually burns it to black rather than slow-fired to white as in a kiln-- although other secret ingredients, moly & whatnot, I'm sure help with the black color. I'm no chemical reaction specialist but something definitely goes on when slip is fired into ceramic, and I believe the reaction generates a substantial amount of extra heat. This would well explain why you get indentations into the stainless when lasering Cermark. When I vector lines onto 18-20 gauge stainless, the lines show up on the back side of the plate just as if a die pressed them in. Yet, run the laser over bare stainless at full power and even slower than Cermark speed, and virtually nothing happens other than the SS gets hot.
The new mix is a result of 'certain proprietary ingredients becoming unavailable' according to Cermark, what they are, who knows, but the ceramic slip brown color went away and we now have a half-as thick yellow-tan mix. In some ways it's better, but a month ago I opened up a half-full can of the old stuff, and I was able to add 3x DNA to it to brush it, and this was already thinned for spraying! I can barely add 3x DNA to 'raw mud' these days, which is my main peeve with it.
But what can I say, in 15 years Cermark's probably added over a half $mil to the books I'd have never made otherwise!