Is posting videos on youtube showing second-rate skills or results fine with you?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chase

Those are extremely useful because they typically then show how they work their way around the mistake, which can have more practical value to viewers than does a perfectly executed work.

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Yes, Derek Cohen does not take short cuts.

Two came to my mind, who could do both, fixing mistakes and producing perfect or close to perfect results: Tage Frid (whose DVD, using power tools, is not online) and Paul Sellers (free subscribers can see certain of his masterclass clips).

Another, forgot his name, a retired editor from Fine Woodworking, shows how to do cabinet doors. Not a long clip but he shows step-by-step and the finished doors are what you could expect to see from people like the two Davids (Charlesworth and Savage). I am inspired only by the works of those -- amateurs or not -- who know their stuff. Crude work or techniques are not my taste. (Edit: Life is too short in my shop for any of those.)

Anyone who likes to be inspired differently, be my guest.

Simon

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Originally Posted by Edwin Santos

How about turning this ripfest positive?
If you head over to the main/General forum, there is a sticky thread where members are invited to post links to their favorite WW videos, most of which are hosted on YouTube. I think even the most expert critics amongst us will find some inspirational work, worthy of accolades. Add to the thread with some links to videos you've found to be excellent.
Or better yet, produce one of your own. Seriously.

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+1 Life is really too short.

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Originally Posted by Edwin Santos

What if you picked up a book and didn't like the author's writing style, content or grammar? Would it bother you? ...

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That is the relevant comparison, and I think the distinctions are also important. A book generally has a publisher who has the responsibility to make sure these things are up to some standard. This is not the case with self-published books, and there's a reason most of us read mostly books from reputable publishers, despite the fact that self-published books could be excellent and cheaper.

Youtube has almost exclusively self-published content. If you don't know the reputation of the individual who made the video, there is no simple way to tell whether the material presented is reasonable or not. Comments help a little, but they also can be swamped by unreasonableness. Finding a person or group of people having the relevant expertise to evaluate the video makes sense, but does require that that expertise be confirmed somehow.

That's what critical threads such as this one can do. They are not the most pleasant type of thread, but they are important.

It's interesting that the loudest critic's have no content to be reviewed. I suspect they may be fearful of comments they would receive.

Note: professionals usually have better production capabilities, including editing, to make their published work virally mistake free. Amateurs on the other hand give us more of the raw, unedited and less produced, results.

Interestingly, I have yet to come across anyone who complains about the crappy tools they find at a store a tool maker themselves. Or, any movie-goers who regret paying to see a bad movie a movie-producer themselves. Next time when I receive a bad service, I'd remember to keep my mouth shut...because I have never been a server or a restaurant owner. Oh, I must also renew my magazine subscription even though I am not happy with its decreasing quality...I have never been a publisher and I am, therefore, not qualified to judge.:rolleyes:

Simon

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Originally Posted by Pat Barry

It's interesting that the loudest critic's have no content to be reviewed. I suspect they may be fearful of comments they would receive.

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Hi Pat,
I think I get what youre really saying - that we Neaders really can be a critical lot. You're right and its fair to call us on it.

Now stepping on my soap box to address your specific comment above. Id like to suggest one reason some of us dont post to Youtube: because we dont need/want the attention. I dont think thats true of everyone who posts videos. Not by any means. There are people who genuinely want to pass on what theyve learned (think Jim Koepke or Dave Weaver). There are also people who simply enjoy creating and editing a video - it's a creative outlet/hobby or even a form of artistic expression for them.

But a personal gripe for me is that here are many people who post to Youtube just because they enjoy the celebrity. ("Lookit me, lookit me, lookit me now.") This happens on a number of other social media like Twitter. (Heck, you can argue it happens right here on SMC from time to time.) It is these attention seekers that I object to, because I seem to find errors, safety issues, etc more often in their video content. But of course, as others have already said, it's free and I can always click past it - so what am I complaining for? :D Ok, stepping off soap box now.

Best regards,
Fred

[Caveat: Folks, these are only my personal opinions, based on observation and conversations with frequent social media users. I freely admit that I have no "hard data" to back them up and that YMMV.]

Wonder how a video ( or three) from Ishitani Furniture would fare with the above "critics"?

discouraging people from posting is mean spirited in my humble opinion. We are in an age where students are able to teach and learn at the same time. I follow a few neo woodworkers on YouTube and on podcasts. I find almost all of them humble and willing to admit mistakes and self effacing. To criticize is to misunderstand and mischaracterize the experience and to underestimate the viewing public.

Cry about it as you wish. I am learning a good deal in this age and hope it continues and that the nay sayers learn to correct individual comments and be positive.

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Originally Posted by Prashun Patel

discouraging people from posting is mean spirited in my humble opinion. We are in an age where students are able to teach and learn at the same time. I follow a few neo woodworkers on YouTube and on podcasts. I find almost all of them humble and willing to admit mistakes and self effacing. To criticize is to misunderstand and mischaracterize the experience and to underestimate the viewing public.

Cry about it as you wish. I am learning a good deal in this age and hope it continues and that the nay sayers learn to correct individual comments and be positive.

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outstanding observations, I feel you are correct, thank you

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Originally Posted by steven c newman

Wonder how a video ( or three) from Ishitani Furniture would fare with the above "critics"?

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I suppose his videos do not feature any of these:

- double wedging tenons ALONG the grain of the mortised board (cracks? sawdust & glue, remember?), or
- advising people to sharpen on ANY cinder block (never saw that? You ain't seen nothing.)
- there is always a smoking buddy as a shop assistant (don't ask if the shop has any No Smoking sign, who cares?)
- using a vise to fine tune a WELL-CUT tenon (a shoulder plane is for relieving shoulder pains only).

This "SPIRITED" thread has run long enough (too long for some;)). Someone (not me) should start a new one entitled: "Is it fine to post articles or videos that would INSPIRE you with their rudimentary skills or craftsmanship (however defined) -- criticisms and/or independent thoughts absolutely N-O-T allowed!!!)

Simon

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Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen

I suppose his videos do not feature any of these:

- double wedging tenons ALONG the grain of the mortised board (cracks? sawdust & glue, remember?), or
- advising people to sharpen on ANY cinder block (never saw that? You ain't seen nothing.)
- there is always a smoking buddy as a shop assistant (don't ask if the shop has any No Smoking sign, who cares?)
- using a vise to fine tune a WELL-CUT tenon (a shoulder plane is for relieving shoulder pains only).

This "SPIRITED" thread has run long enough (too long for some;)). Someone (not me) should start a new one entitled: "Is it fine to post articles or videos that would INSPIRE you with their rudimentary skills or craftsmanship (however defined) -- criticisms and/or independent thoughts absolutely N-O-T allowed!!!)

Simon

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I agree with Prashun,

I view the videos as a glimpse into another person's process, they often espouse on their process so that their videos are not 15 minutes of silent woodworking (I have that niche carved out for myself, :D). I don't expect many are going to hedge every comment they make with passive language and so it often does come off as expertise, but in their shoes they're simply providing their process for you to take or leave.

Youtube has provided some excellent content.

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Youtube has provided some excellent content.

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Especially if you are fond of cats. :cool:

jtk

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Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe

I agree with Prashun,


Youtube has provided some excellent content.

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Good to know.

It so happens I agree with myself -- that I will get inspired only by good work, including some of yours. I will not let anyone on this forum or elsewhere convince me that I need to bite my tongue even when I see c**p (oops, sorry David. I can't find a better word.)

I look forward to seeing someone create a new thread in which everybody agrees with everybody (and I promise I will bite my tongue there, there only).

As I said, anyone who likes to be inspired differently, be my guest. I will not attempt to convince anyone to stay away from any materials, crap or otherwise, they enjoy.

Simon

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Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe

Also, you're going to complain about receiving criticism!?! I don't begrudge you're having stated your opinion, the internet is an open forum, but you might respect that you are receiving opinions both agreeing with and contrary to your own.

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Where/in which post of mine did I complain about that???:confused: I do not see any opposing or different comments made in this thread as criticisms. They are all opinions, however worded, to me. If anyone is taking offense of my comments as criticisms of them, they are imagining things! They, not me, have to adjust their perspectives, if so.

I encourage exchanges of opinions. I have only been giving examples of the bad things I have seen to support my position. I did not even label anyone's post mean-spirited, did I?

Simon

I should have added more smiley faces, my comment was meant to be lighthearted. :D :p :D

Anywho, I edit my post since my comment apparently lacked necessary context.