Is posting videos on youtube showing second-rate skills or results fine with you?

I have come across quite a number of "tutorial" videos on youtube with good intentions, trying to share hand tool techniques with everyone, that are in my opinion below the fine woodworking quality. The most common examples are those showing the finished joints with tiny or unsightly gaps, including one coming from a well-known, very skilled woodworker and another from what was usually paid online content (the latter shot professionally). Both, I believe, could produce a perfect joinery if they had taken the time to retry and reshoot.

Does sharing a technique video (free of charge) with sloppy results bother you?

Simon

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Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen

I have come across quite a number of "tutorial" videos on youtube with good intentions, trying to share hand tool techniques with everyone, that are in my opinion below the fine woodworking quality. The most common examples are those showing the finished joints with tiny or unsightly gaps, including one coming from a well-known, very skilled woodworker and another from what was usually paid online content (the latter shot professionally). Both, I believe, could produce a perfect joinery if they had taken the time to retry and reshoot.

Does sharing a technique video (free of charge) with sloppy results bother you?

Simon

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My employer would not want me discussing my opinions of what gets posted to YouTube specifically, but in general... https://xkcd.com/386/

I wouldnt share sloppy results - I'd be embarrassed. But I increasingly see people posting "weak" woodworking content on the web.

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Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly

I wouldnt share sloppy results - I'd be embarrassed. But I increasingly see people posting "weak" woodworking content on the web.

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I think that one key challenge is that to avoid posting weak content you actually have to realize that your content is weak.

It bothers me to the extent that if I find them lacking I go to another one. But I confess to starting with the short ones. It also bothers me that those seeking help here often seem to go with majority opinion. But ,on the other hand, some of the real experts here insist on rattling on for a whole paragraph before giving us the magic SECRET that makes it quick and easy.

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Originally Posted by Mel Fulks

But ,on the other hand, some of the real experts here insist on rattling on for a whole paragraph before giving us the magic SECRET that makes it quick and easy.

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Or they don't tell you the secret at all :-)

A classic example from a number of years back: "You need to learn how to use a double iron".

of course not. If I don't like what I'm seeing I just click awya and its forgotten. On the other hand, I appreciate that there is lots of content to choose from. I might even watch (a bit) if Patrick posted something ;)

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Originally Posted by Pat Barry

of course not. If I don't like what I'm seeing I just click awya and its forgotten. On the other hand, I appreciate that there is lots of content to choose from. I might even watch (a bit) if Patrick posted something ;)

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You beat me at it !!!

Like Pat, I just move on, life’s too short. We are bothered entirely too easily today.

Simon,

At one time, it bothered me a lot. When I first started serious woodworking I tried to learn from the web (mainly woodworking forums). I'm a bit embarrassed to admit it, but I was very naive about the wide variety of motivations people have for posting things on the internet and about some people's willingness to pontificate about matters of which they knew little. I was taken aback by the petty squabbles about pins vs tails, the best adhesives, finishes, tool badges, dust collectors, sharpening methods, etc. So, yes. I was also naive about woodworking TV. It really bothered me that I couldn't get the results that the guy in the plaid shirt was getting.

Things got better when I realized that learning how to winnow the wheat from the chaff was actually an important part of learning this craft. My reliance on the internet went way down and my use of professionally produced material went up. There actually is a factual basis for a lot of what we do. Eventually I was able to start acting on intelligence (knowledge) as guided by experience. And I learned who the BS artists are. Fame is not much of a credential.

Doug

If it is possible to learn from one's own mistakes should it not also be possible to learn from the mistakes of others?

My videos are as low budget and likely mistake prone as any. Though I have received unpleasant comments from an occasional viewer, others send messages saying they have learned or enjoyed something.

Besides, some of it is amusing.

Here is one of my videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apLzrpsdcK0

It was made using planes rehabbed as part of this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...hab-Enthusiast

Hopefully some who read the thread and watched the video saw that if some old fart can do it, they should be able to get results.

jtk

Are the videos labeled how to make the perfectly fitting X & Y joint?

If they executed the joint and you understand the idea behind how, I don't see why a person should be bothered. It's up to the individual to then execute to the best of their abilities.

For me a lot of things are new and I take what I can get for free (beggars can't be choosers) I understand humans are not perfect and I think a slight gap just shows the human side of things.

I showed someone at work the other day how to do something, during the training I made a slight mistake, but at the end of the day my Co worker understood the process and was able to compelete the task at hand.

My point is (at least in my world) a lot of training is done in haste and things don't always go perfectly, but if the recipient understands the basics thoroughly then you've accomplished your goal.

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Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen

Does sharing a technique video (free of charge) with sloppy results bother you?

Simon

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I have been watching the The Woodwright's Shop since 1979
the technique is more important than his sloppy results
while his work may be rushed to compete a project in 27 minutes
the work process is valuable because, it demonstrate the steps of how and why it is done

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chase

I think that one key challenge is that to avoid posting weak content you actually have to realize that your content is weak.

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Oh yeah, absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Pat Barry

of course not. If I don't like what I'm seeing I just click awya and its forgotten. On the other hand, I appreciate that there is lots of content to choose from. I might even watch (a bit) if Patrick posted something ;)

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+2. What say Patrick? Maybe a demo of how to set up a #55?

In some cases, mistakes are just part of the work and even professionals make imperfect joints. In other cases it is rushed and part of the character of the show (Roy). In most cases though, I believe they are only taking the care needed to prove the method and intentionally aren't shooting for perfection because videos of this nature are targeting beginners. Beginners usually want realistic, achievable standards and probably don't want to be discouraged by seeing perfection at every turn.

If you are watching more advanced stuff or professional project-level demonstrations of commissioned or paid work, you will see a long series of videos where a lot more care and explanation of how to avoid problems occurs.

Now, if you paid for the video and the production quality and narrative is poor, I could see a complaint. Otherwise click on by.

I enjoyed your videos Jim. But that doesn't really surprise me - I usually learn from your posts here. Thank you!
Fred

I doesn't bother me at all as long as they talk. Ten minute demonstrations/builds without uttering a word drive me nutty.

The thing that really drives me nuts is watch someone demonstrate something that is blatantly unsafe. Although this usually happens with tailed screamers, I've even seen some chisel techniques make me shudder. I hate to think that someone completely new to WW would try that with disastrous results.

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Originally Posted by Jim Koepke

If it is possible to learn from one's own mistakes should it not also be possible to learn from the mistakes of others?

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Agree, if only viewer can recognize the mistakes. When I started I could not and felt into many traps, like many others, it seems... until I came across videos of Paul Sellers and The English Woodworker and alike. It was professional stupidity on my side, naive me indeed...

So, watch all excellent videos first, before watching just good ones or worse! :)

There is one guy in particular who appears to have a following and he builds stuff with dovetails going the wrong way, and a complete lack of balance in the design. It makes my skin crawl... then I get over it... mostly.

There's one guy whose always wearing a nice shirt and working on the floor, watch out for him.

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Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe

There's one guy whose always wearing a nice shirt and working on the floor, watch out for him.

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If it's the same guy I'm thinking of, I usually just go right past to the next one.:D;)

Do you mean sloppy joints on a triangular,small table that he ALREADY made? When you can see how bad joints are on TV,they are indeed bad!:)

No one expects anyone to make a whole project in less than 30 minutes. The videos I laugh at the most are when Roy and friend jam and buckle saws,and slam their ends into the brick floor while showing VERY unsuitable sawing positions. Oh yes,and the sloppiest clenching of nails I've ever seen. Tired little noodles of steel! THAT really,there is no excuse for. You don't see that sort of things when my former journeymen come on to demonstrate veneering,etc. Or,how to saw 1/16" veneer with a hand saw. Marcus is always right on the line.

Very interesting and varied perspectives from all of you.


As many of you do, I quickly change channel or video when I dislike anything I see there. But I cringe when I come across videos like these:

• A guy showing how to cut a tail marked the tail on a cross grain board. The worse were a few comments (obviously they had never cut a dovetail) showering praises on his video. Luckily, a few others pointed out what went wrong there.
• Someone was paid (by a publication) to do a tutorial video (presumably in a studio) and the result was a gappy joint. Frankly, how many of us, newbies or not, needed to pay to learn how to cut a gappy joint? The paid content was released for free viewing on YouTube. The whole episode needed not be reshot, but a new joint should be cut and presented. If you, as the master or teacher, couldn’t deliver a “perfect” result based on what you just showed, why would I, a viewer, think I could do better than you?
  
• It is fine to make a mistake and show the viewers how to fix it. Norm Abram did that, Paul Sellers does it and Rob Cosman, too, live. But one better known woodworker (who became ”famous” by posting lots of videos) completed a joint with a gap and then showed the technique of fixing it by using a mix of glue and sawdust. This kind of fix will only fool a non-woodworker.
  

Edit - I have also seen articles that show the completion of one perfect joint, but not the whole assembly. It is not difficult to cut just one perfect mitre joint or one secret mitre dovetail but the acid test is when you put the four mitres together. An article about installing inset doors without showing the door installed in a carcase with even reveals is not a good enough article for me, regardless of how well the photographs present the technique. When it is my money (I am the boss), I prefer the walk the talk to the talk the talk.


Simon

I do post utube videos. The videos are made with the best of my ability and I do actually make sure that the audience learns something. Some will nit pick on your content but it really depends on intention of the video. To educate or to make money? Depends on the author.

Even for welding videos I do notice that some of the welds aren't great but they are out of focus on the most part.

Buddha said "even the student can each the master" not everyone is a master at woodworking and most woodworkers are not masters at media, presentation or public speaking hence the wide variations. You aren't paying for so why worry. You might even learn something. Personally I appreciate the simple fact that someone put themselves out there to be attacked and ridiculed by self style masters. I applaude them.

It does not bother me at all. I think, how generous that he or she is sharing. It is probably educational to someone with less skill than you.

I don't like when people post unsafe practices or when people criticize others' right to share.

Instead of criticizing, post something better. Let the market decide.

Agree with Prashun. And even some of the untalented have good flourishes. Anyone who works in view of the public needs to develop good flourishes ,it's part of good salesmanship. Who among us ,while in a diner, has not thought " these pancakes don't taste all that good ,but that guy sure can flip pancakes!"?

When I was a kid I worked on a framing crew, and the joke was that all it takes to be a carpenter is a pickup truck and a ladder rack. Apparently, all it takes to be a woodworker is a dovetail saw and YouTube channel :cool:

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Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly

+2. What say Patrick? Maybe a demo of how to set up a #55?

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Maybe. See my comment above about how we avoid posting weak content though :-).

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Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe

There's one guy whose always wearing a nice shirt and working on the floor, watch out for him.

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I hear that guy hires "session woodworkers" to do all the hard moves in his videos. It's "Milli Vanilli but with chisels" :-):-):-)

Maybe it is a good thing I don't plan on doing a video.....

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Originally Posted by steven c newman

Maybe it is a good thing I don't plan on doing a video.....

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Too bad Steven, they are kind of fun to do.

Maybe if a bit of spare time comes my way a video on stopped rabbets will be made. Cheap camera, check… poor lighting, check… don't forget to turn the music down when the camera is on.

jtk

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chase

I hear that guy hires "session woodworkers" to do all the hard moves in his videos. It's "Milli Vanilli but with chisels" :-):-):-)

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Hah! :D That would make for a very entertaining video!

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chase

Maybe. See my comment above about how we avoid posting weak content though :-).

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I'm sure your content will be stellar Patrick. Perhaps a shop tour. 1st episode - sharpening. Review all your various setups and walk us through the ins and outs of diamond paste with an example chisel tuning. Can't wait to see it!

It doesn't bother me personally. Kudos to them for doing their best. If I don't like someone I just I just avoid watching their videos of people and don't divert the internet traffic their way.

What really bothers me is when they post videos of them building someone else's design without crediting the original maker. For example, a woodworker whose videos show up a lot on searches (but whose skills appear very amateurish) posted a long video on how to make winding sticks. The problem is, the design he chose for his sticks were EXACTLY like Paul Sellers, who released a very detailed video of himself making the winding sticks. The new poster basically did exactly what Paul did, in even less detail, but didn't credit Paul at all and shared his video on various platforms like it was his own conception. Enough of my rant.

I work too slow for videos, I don't talk loud enough, nor fast enough. Don't have the camera stuff needed. Nor the room.

I doubt IF most would want to see me working......might be a tad too boring? It would get to the point where I would be working FOR the camera, and not towards the work.

IF I ever get dumb enough to try a video....I would want it to be the best work I could do....I would rather just sit at my bench, and relax.....and maybe cobble a few things up.

Besides...I don't own a Plaid shirt....

My videos stand as proof that you can also wear blue oxfords for woodworking videos.

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Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe

My videos stand as proof that you can also wear blue oxfords for woodworking videos.

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You need a synergistic personal brand to tie all of this together. Something like "the renaissance financier" (I have no idea what you do/did as a day job, but you're overdressed and from NYC and I'm intellectually lazy, so let's go with the obvious stereotype :-)