Breasting on a dovetail saw

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It's a Dunn and Co, which I understand was made by Monhagen Saw Works near here in upstate NY. Looked like a standard dovetail saw at first. Spine has been smacked down onto the plate creating a slope that, from what I understand, is not correct and often done in ignorance. It's also been filed with a decent amount of rake and some fleam but not quite as much as I would expect in a dedicated crosscut saw. Here's the odd part that I'm unsure about, though--upon closer inspection I noticed this:

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I've never seen a backsaw with breasting before but the rest of the teeth are jointed pretty well which makes me reluctant to think that this curve at the toe is unintentional.

Another odd detail is that the saw plate isn't square at the toe:
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Anyone ever seen anything like this? Was this saw designed with these details in mind or was it likely just done haphazardly by someone a hundred years ago?

My guess is the breasting is done by inattentive sharpening.

The slope is by design on some dovetail saws. It helps to prevent overshooting the line on the far side according to some.

The end not being square shouldn't be a deal killer. Is it square to the top of the plate? Of course if the plate was made to be sloped, that means it will not have a square corner or two.

Finally, it is possible a previous owner made their own plate from another saw at one time.

jtk

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Originally Posted by Jim Koepke

Is it square to the top of the plate? Of course if the plate was made to be sloped, that means it will not have a square corner or two.

jtk

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Aha--that could be the case. The way the front corner at the toe is leaning, it would be square to the spine if the spine is sloped. So perhaps that detail was intended.

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It's also been filed with a decent amount of rake and some fleam but not quite as much as I would expect in a dedicated crosscut saw.

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Dovetail saws are traditionally filed rip tooth.

Looks like an old,mistreated saw.

I wonder if you actually tried to use the saw, Matthew. It looks to me like something that could work fine. The tapered saw plate was common in the 18th century and early 19th century. It allowed for more stiffness at the toe (most vulnerable to wobble), which is nice. At the handle it is nice to have more height to the plate to attach the handle and keep the handle away from the tooth line.

The slight rounding of the tooth line at the toe seems to me to be of little consequence. More important are the sharpness of the teeth, an appropriate amount of set. So try it out before committing to alterations.

Matthew, I agree with others who suggested try using it first. The teeth do not look too bad (not great but usable), and the breasting at the toe is of little consequence since the remainder of the plate is fairly flat.

Should you decide that it does not cut well enough, it is not difficult to re-tooth the plate - if I can do it, anyone can (and I did two rip re-toothings this weekend, one 15 tpi and the other 16 tpi, both by hand). There are templates available that help greatly. I suspect that this will not be necessary at this stage, although the plate does need jointing before the next sharpening - what has happened has been that the plate has been sharpened on several occasions without any jointing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks everyone, the input is always appreciated.

The teeth aren't super sharp but I bet they're sharp enough to work, and a quick filing would obviously be much less of an ordeal than retoothing. There's a slight bend in the plate so I have to deal with that first and make sure that the spine itself isn't bent. Given that I already have a 14PPI dovetail saw I figured at some point I'd retooth this one anyway. It would be nice to have something in the 16PPI range for smaller stuff that I find myself working on frequently. But if it crosscuts better than my current dovetail saw it might find its use in that capacity.

As for the breasting, is that something that I can assume is never done intentionally on a backsaw? I could see its utility in a longer panel saw given the mechanics of my own saw stroke but I can't see any point in breasting in a backsaw.

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Originally Posted by Warren Mickley

I wonder if you actually tried to use the saw, Matthew. It looks to me like something that could work fine. The tapered saw plate was common in the 18th century and early 19th century. It allowed for more stiffness at the toe (most vulnerable to wobble), which is nice. At the handle it is nice to have more height to the plate to attach the handle and keep the handle away from the tooth line.

The slight rounding of the tooth line at the toe seems to me to be of little consequence. More important are the sharpness of the teeth, an appropriate amount of set. So try it out before committing to alterations.

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+1 on above comment

To get rid of the bend in the blade,remove the handle and clamp it where the handle was teeth up in a vise. Take a Crescent wrench. Adjust it to fit the back. Carefully twist the back till the teeth are in a straight line. Very easy to do. You'll never notiice any twisting of the back.

That's how I straightened all our back saws. Our craftsmen customers were very pleased.

Typed without my glasses!

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Originally Posted by george wilson

To get rid of the bend in the blade,remove the handle and clamp it where the handle was teeth up in a vise. Take a Crescent wrench. Adjust it to fit the back. Carefully twist the back till the teeth are in a straight line. Very easy to do. You'll never notiice any twisting of the back.

That's how I straightened all our back saws. Our craftsmen customers were very pleased.

Typed without my glasses!

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How much can you bend spring steel cold without risk of damage?

A Lot. You can bend a handsaw blade in a complete circle without cracking the blade. You can also clamp the blade in a vise tight with the spine about 1/8" above the vise jaws. You can pry up on the spine with a cats foot to lift the spine on the blade. When you get it roughly straight how you want it, lightly tap the back with a wooden mallet with the blade resting on a wood block. Do it evenly and any stresses in the blade will disappear and the blade will straighten. If you mess it up, and damage the blade, you can always start over with a new piece of spring steel. Looks like that might not be a bad approach considering how narrow your blade is.