Grain Filler + Stain + Finish... what sequence? What product?

Hello All,

I'm going to be staining and finishing a red oak project (Glued up bar top). However I want to fill the grain on the red oak so that it is smooth in the end. (I don't like the look of epoxy, looking for a satin final finish).
I'm about to start testing stains to see what I like. I picked up some Enduro Gel, Water, and Oil based stains to try, and was going to see how Aquacoat worked as a grain filler. https://aquacoat.com/products/clear-grain-filler

The manufacturer instructions indicate to stain first then seal coat, then do grain filler. Anyone know if it matters what kind of stain I use? I was wanting to go with an oil base to prevent the fuzzy grain raising of waterbase stain.

Anyone have any other recommendations for grain filling? (Bearing in mind that I want to stain the wood), or sequence?

It's best to stick with one type of product for the entire sequence. So if you want to use an OB stain it would be best to use an OB grain filler, or if you want to use a WB grain filler it would be best to start with a WB stain. You can mix and match but the probability of problems developing are a lot higher.

I wouldn't worry about grain raising with a WB stain, but if you would rather use an OB one to completely avoid it then I suggest you look at Behlen's Pore-O-Pac or Old Master's OB grain fillers. FWIW, I have used Aquacoat grain filler and it works very well.

John

Eric, I understand the nature of your question, and am curious about the sequence as well. I’ve seen grain fillers recommend a shellac wash coat first to minimize any bleed from the filler. But a wash coat of shellac could inhibit the stain. If you stain then fill, when you sand down the filler, it seems you could remove some stain. So I’m with you, and curious what the experts have to say. I tend to skip the shellac sealer, and just use grain filler first, then sand, then stain, then top coat. I will say though, that I can’t remember the last time I actually used stain. I’ll use Watco to darken walnut, but that’s about it.

Aquacoat works well. I used it on the top of my most recent Sapele table. My order was stain, seal, pore fill, then top coat. Be aware you may need more than one application of Aquacoat to fully fill all pores. It sands easily. I was only looking to soften the grain not fully fill so I just did a single coat.

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It matters. When a manufacturer gives you a set of recommendations, they are talking in the context their own products. Use a different stain and you will get a different result and risk having a failure of the coating system. Failure can be immediate and spectacular or slow and insidious.

If I am staining and filling a job, this is a single operation with a mix of the 2 products and done before any sealer is applied.

If your only objection to epoxy is the gloss, there are plenty of high build products in a range of gloss levels. At least there are here. Using a high build clear gives great sharpness and clarity to the job. Grain filler tends to reduce definition and blurr the grain. Both appearances are legitimate. They are just personal design preference options. Cheers

Hmm... really not sure what to go with here as a grain filler.

You like the aquacoat and other guys do too so give it a go. Download the tech data sheet and follow the instructions. I can't give you a recommendation as products here are different. Just stick with one type of product as John said. Cheers

OK, maybe I need to work from the the top(coat) down. :)

What finish would be best for this application? That is, commercial bar top which will see spills and wetness. Then I can back my way into a compatible filler/stain.

I've fished out the 4 or so books on finish I have, but I'm super pressed for time. Can anyone recommend a product for the finish? From searching past posts on forum I see Waterlox come up a bit. But when I was looking at the can at wood craft it looked like it is a Tung oil (or similar) finish? I must have missed something, since I know just an oil finish is minimally protective. We need some kind of built up plasticky type thing like urethane, or polyurethane, right? :)

I’ve used Waterlox quite a bit and it’s a great product, but I don’t think it will hold up well to a heavily used bar top. If you have the ability to spray, a conversion varnish like Target Coatings EM8000cv with a cross linker added might be a good choice- many restaurant tables are finished in conversion varnish.

https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...rsion-varnish/

If you are wiping/brushing your choices will be more limited. I’ve used Arm-R-Seal a bit and it seems pretty durable, but you should check with the manufacturer for their recommendations.

2 pack polyurethane is the best for this. Stain using a solvent based dye, and straight on with the polyurethane. There is no need for a grain filler. 2 coats to build it, block it flat, apply another coat and you are done. Any auto paint shop will have a suitable product. This is what is used commercially. It will withstand the water and alcohol splashes and provide a long service life. Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert Cherry

My order was stain, seal, pore fill, then top coat.

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Which products did you use please? (Other than Aquacoat). Was the "seal" step just a washcoat of the top coat?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erich Weidner

Which products did you use please? (Other than Aquacoat). Was the "seal" step just a washcoat of the top coat?

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Stain was General Finishes water based dye stain. Top coats were Target EM6000, I built the base coats with gloss then a top coat of satin to cut the sheen. On this particular piece the ‘sealer’ was the first coat of gloss, sprayed ‘full strength’. On more recent projects I have used Target’s sealer (EM1000 I believe it is) and I like that product a lot, it seems to raise the grain less so less sanding required to flatten it. Everything was sprayed except the Aquacoat of course, which I applied with an old credit card. Stain was sprayed on then wiped back with rags.

To the original question, If if I were making a bar top, I would use a similar finish schedule except I would switch the EM6000 for something more durable, such as Target’s conversion varnish or the EM9300 and I would use the cross linker with either of those choices. That would give a more durable finish better suited for a bar top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert Cherry

To the original question, If if I were making a bar top, I would use a similar finish schedule except I would switch the EM6000 for something more durable, such as Target’s conversion varnish or the EM9300 and I would use the cross linker with either of those choices. That would give a more durable finish better suited for a bar top.

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I've got an HVLP and LPLV gun but haven't used it yet. (My garage workshop just hasn't been accommodating to trying to get a spray setup going. But someday I'll learn to do it!

At any rate, I've got to finish this project on site, so not in my garage shop. I think I'm going to have to stick to something I can brush on. At the previous location I brushed on a Minwax polyurethane oil based finish. It came out good. (I used a 4" brush, thinned the poly a little, and worked fast). It was about an 18' long countertop. This new project is only a few feet longer, so I think I can probably use the same technique.

On the subject of durability, the counter is now 7 years old in the old location and with two exceptions, (one where a plywood joint was, and another where the finish was gouged out) it is still looking good and hasn't worn through anywhere or suffered water damage.

I can't say the same for the tables I built. On those I also brushed the topcoat, but I used General Finish's Enduro-Var over the raw oak plywood tops, and all of them have some "bubbling/bulging" in spots. Presumably where water has penetrated.

I'll admit that I sort of expected that General Finishes would be a better quality product than Min-wax and am disappointing in it's performance. (OK, I know that I'm comparing an oil based finish to a water based, one is called Polyurethane, the other Urethane. So maybe this isn't apples to apples... but what I need is durability and water damage resistance... So... what do I choose?

For poly, my preference is either Minwax or Arm-R-Seal. Sounds like You have had good luck with the Minwax so might make sense to stick with that.